Justine, thank you very much for coming in.
It's great to have you here.
And also this is our first sort of
- video CEO to CEO. - Okay. So I am the guinea pig?
- You are the guinea pig. - Excellent.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Mumsnet is sort of an institution within the sort of digital world.
And I would love to, sort of
I guess, understand where you came up with
- the idea for Mumsnet. - Yes.
Well, I mean, one of the things is that we are really old.
We've actually been going for nearly 17 years.
So, yeah. I feel slightly geriatric.
'cos, Internet years are a bit like dog years all over.
But really, the inspiration as, you know, often is,
it was my own personal sort of, need.
I had these one-year-old twins.
I went on a family holiday.
It was the first holiday, we had with children.
And it was a complete unmitigated disaster.
Wrong choice of venue, wrong choice of resort,
wrong choice of children.
And so it was, it was....
You know, a lightbulb moment if it was.
It was, "Why couldn't I have found out about this before I went?"
And actually not just holidays
but all this parenting stuff for which
you know, I'm pretty clueless and untrained.
It would be good to tap into the wisdom
of others who'd been there and done that.
So it was a very simple, no rocket science there.
But it was about my own need and so I came home and luckily found
a mate of mine who could code and we got going from there.
Amazing story.
Well, I have been on several holidays
with haven't worked with my children and so,
- I know exactly that experience. - Yes.
And, had you known before that?
That you wanted to be an entrepreneur.
Do you think, that you have this sort of, entrepreneur
desire before that or was it that moment, you think,
- "This holiday ain't working. - Yes.
- "Someone needs to start a conversation" - No. I didn't.
I was not one of those people who said though, you know
"I'm definitely gonna start my own business."
But, there was a bit of moment.
And I do believe serendipity plays a part in these things.
It was the right time and the right place for me.
I'd given up a career that I'd spent 10 years in.
Because it just didn't work with children.
So I was looking around for the next thing.
The Internet bubble was, at that point
just about to burst, actually; I didn't know that.
But it was kind of... Everyone was --
It was that wild west of the Internet
where everyone was having a start-up idea.
So, the situation was ripe.
It was ripe for me personally to try something.
I suppose, I was always entrepreneurial.
Although I didn't really -- I think women are bit different.
They don't call themselves entrepreneurs.
They just start businesses and do
you know, trade and stuff.
So yes.
The answer is a bit of a fudge.
No, probably not, in the sense of I didn't
leave University and think:
"I'm definitely gonna start my own business."
So what was the overarching vision for Mumsnet?
Mumsnet is all about making parents' lives easier.
So what we are trying to do is to allow people to connect
so that they can make their lives easier
by sharing that wisdom and knowledge.
So, a lot of it is user generated content.
But some of it is not as well.
We create content.
And we want to create solutions that make parents' lives easier.
So that's actually quite a broad remit.
Largely they are going to be digital solutions.
Cos that's what we know about.
But you know, we have quite a well-known brand now.
I'm just passionate about --
You know, we all know how hard it is just making those...
the irritating things in the lives of the parents slightly easier
would be a great win.
- Yes. - So that's the area we are in.
It's a very noble service.
And have you ever felt that -- I can imagine, you know,
I imagine, most mums who have got Internet access in the UK
have probably been on your website and looked for advice.
Have you felt, sort of a huge burden,
a sense of responsibility around those mums
in terms of, you know, I've got all this advice
and if I give the wrong advice,
or if the forum is giving the wrong advice.
How do you quantify that sort of burden of responsibility?
I mean, obviously you don't want to give bum advice.
But honestly, I promise you, it just would not get through.
When you've got a very large,
very opinionated and very wise crowd.
I mean, the Mumsnet audience is a pretty educated audience.
So, you know, if you ask a question about a health issue,
there will be many, many GPs on Mumsnet, giving answers.
If you ask about, you know, "I want to submit my thesis on
how Jane Austen did", there will be people
- who are experts in that field. - Yes.
So it's actually very rare.
And quite a lot of research has been done on this
for bad advice to get through.
It's probably more accurate, than one expert sitting there.
A very wide crowd. So, thankfully,
I can sleep at night knowing, that,
you know, thanks to the users of Mumsnet,
that, you know, isn't something really we've had to worry about.
Being a parent myself,
it's an incredibly up and down rollercoaster of a journey.
I was just wondering, I imagine, on Mumsnet
there's been a lot of mums who have been in very tough situations.
Are there some examples of sort of
times, when Mumsnet saved people's lives?
There are actually. There are some really dramatic examples.
So literally, people having ectopic pregnancy, diagnosed.
- On Mumsnet? Wow. - Yes.
I mean, several of those actually
presenting symptoms, get to the doctor right now
you've got an ectopic pregnancy.
And then, they come back and tell their story.
We had a live birth where the midwife wasn't there.
And literally the mums, have taught through,
the dad in this case, how to cope with the situation.
But then there's a lot more everyday prosaic stuff.
I mean, there is some cute stuff.
People have gone on holiday, forgotten their favourite toy.
A local Mumsnet has delivered
a toy that they have, which is the same to a four-year-old child
- who is no longer, weeping. - That's a lovely story.
And some more serious stuff around,
You know, people suffering domestic violence.
Being, kind of handheld through that process of leaving
an abusive husband.
And some stuff which is kind of just going on everyday.
Which is, everyday acts of kindness and generosity
and giving support and information
to people who are having a difficult time of it.
Mumsnet is this institution in the digital space.
Where do you see the next big sort of area for Mumsnet?
What's your big sort of growth story in the next couple of years?
I think, you know we need to deliver, what we do.
Which is, provides solutions for parents to make their lives easier
in whatever platform and medium they need it in.
As you know, in this world that's a challenge in itself, right?
You've got to stay current.
You've got to make sure that if people want to consume your product
via artificial intelligence, you are thinking about that type of thing.
So for me it's...
You know, we need to have the overarching aim,
"What are we here for? What's our purpose?"
And then we need to deliver it,
in the way the users want it delivered.
So I'd imagine, with Mumsnet you've met some pretty amazing people.
Can you talk about the most famous person you've met
and what you learnt about them?
Yes, we do. We get sort of all the great and good.
We've had every prime minister, every aspiring prime minister.
And David Beckham, and all kinds of people.
But I guess the most topically famous person
I've met, is Hillary Clinton, who did a web chat on Mumsnet.
And what would I say? Well,
you kind of think, she's a bit cold and aloof
but she's really not.
She is a kind of homespun, warm, American type
who engulfs you in her warmth.
But she also has a really good sense of humour.
So we have a comment, our community management team
always say on the board,
"The Secret Service will not comment on procedure."
And she learnt this and she did a little piece to camera saying,
"The Secret Service does not comment on procedure."
And we now put that clip up.
- So, she was a good laugh - Yes, yes.
- which was quite surprising. - Awesome. Fantastic.
I've been on various start-up journeys myself.
And you know, you have highs and you have lows.
Can you -- Would you like to sort of suggest
what your highest moment, your best moment in Mumsnet was
and your, sort of worst moment?
You don't have to answer either of those If it makes you feel uneasy.
There's kind of personal things and then there's, you know --
I mean, for me, very early on
when we started our forum, I had multiple names
and I was posting questions and then changing my name
and answering questions.
And for me, I think, one of the highest was when,
I no longer needed to do that.
So, I actually, rather ruthlessly got a friend of mine
who was pregnant, who rang me up and said,
"I've got these palpitations. Did you have that?"
I said, "I'll answer your question but could you ask it on Mumsnet?"
So, I've felt a bit guilty and rushed on to answer
and lo and behold, someone else appeared and answered.
So that was a kind of, really high and there were lots of highs and lows
I think you know, the 2010 election,
was christened, the Mumsnet election by the media
and that was quite jolly.
Because it's sort of propelled us into -- I mean it was hectic.
But, it propelled us into a space of, you know, you were being
transformed into this kind of media world of mass.
Everyone wanted a piece of you and that was quite fun.
But then there's been lots of lows too.
- As you would imagine. - There always are.
So I suppose, the most obvious one, the most difficult time was
when we were being hacked
by a kind of bunch of people.
Bunch of, sort of, Anonymous type people, who...
Who, you know, did a multiple range of things.
The Denial of Service, hacked into our database,
released passwords, did a data dump.
You know, it was just kind of one of those awful times.
When for a while, we didn't know how they were doing it.
So... And trying to handle the fallout from that.
Being very transparent with users.
Trying to keep their information safe.
It was definitely the hardest. And then,
they sent a SWAT team around to mine
and some Mumsnetter's house as well. So...
That's called "Being SWATted".
I'm officially the first person in the UK to have been, SWATted.
It's not pleasant having six armed policemen come around the house
with police dogs and
you know, think that you have been murdered.
- Which is what they thought! - What's the background to the story?
It was just kind of, it was the part of same hack.
It's kind of something, unfortunately that happens quite a lot in America.
I think gamers started doing it to each other, as a laugh.
But, it was all a part of, you know,
"Teach those mouthy women a lesson.", basically.
Do you feel that, that hack was
to do with sort of, anti-feminists?
Was it anti-feminists hack?
Do you think it was more just people --
- I think, some of it -- - What was the motive do you think?
Some of it was that. I think it was complicated.
Someone had trolled our board.
And Mumsnet is rather good at detecting trolls
and they have very little time for them.
So they got kind of vaguely humiliated.
And then drummed up. Kind of,
- "Let's get them bitches," type thing - Yeah.
Look, in the long run it's useful.
Our security is much, much better.
And one must never say, one was perfect, ever.
But we are alive to it, in a way that we weren't.
- And no one died. Right? - Yes.
Very often, I don't sleep that well at night.
I was wondering -- and I spoke to quite a few other entrepreneurs
about this. Lots of entrepreneurs don't sleep well at night.
- Do you sleep well at night? - Not really.
I do that sort of 4:30 AM waking
and then there's 10 million things I need to do.
It's always 4:30 AM. Isn't it? You look up and it's 4:30.
And I think you naturally have a period of light sleep at 4:30 AM.
The problem is, once you start making lists
it's hard to go back to sleep.
If I am, you know, in fully relaxed
probably in August or Christmas time
- when I'm just not as engaged, - Yes.
then I can go back to sleep.
It's just like me. It's August and Christmas, I sleep well.
I sleep fine, but the rest of the year, I don't.
And I don't really know what the answer is.
So if you find out, let me know.
I don't know, whether you should get up and start.
I have done that. I've got up and done email.
- Yeah. - And then tried to go back.
I can always go back to sleep at seven just when I'm...
Yes, just as the kids wake up.
It's always just as the kids wake up, isn't it?
Obviously there's lots of budding entrepreneurs out there at the moment
trying to build great businesses all across the UK.
And all across the world.
Have you got any advice, you'd offer a budding entrepreneur?
Something you have learnt that resonates?
I think there are lots of kind of things that people
would all agree on. Like, you've got to have a USP
and you must work hard
and you should always be flexible and pivot and all that stuff.
All of which is true.
But I think, I'll just say one other thing.
Cos, I think it's particularly relevant to female entrepreneurs.
When I was first trying to raise money,
just before the dot-com bubble burst
I got very close to raising money with a venture fund
and they wanted to give us 4 million quid. Unbelievable, right?
Cos, the numbers, as it turned out, were completely wrong.
Anyway, just before they did, they said,
"Look, we wanna give you this money, it's a great idea.
"But we want someone else to run it. You have no experience.
"And quite frankly, you don't look the part.
"You are a mum.
"You're not a 22-year-old thrusting American talking about burn rates.
You are completely different."
And my advice, really -- cos, I thought I wasn't ready
to give up before I've even started, so...
I didn't take their money, but in any case,
their money would have gone cos, there was the bubble burst.
But my advice is, more or less, no one is better than you
to run your business. Because you understand it.
You are passionate about it.
You are the reason, why the idea is there.
- So be firm. - Yes.
And don't let the, sort of, knockers,
knock you. Just because you may not look the part
or you may not sound the part
doesn't mean that you aren't the best person to do it.
You know, on that, sort of female entrepreneurs
do you -- how are you feeling about the sort of
the ecosystem for female entrepreneurs at the moment.
Do you think it's getting better?
How do you think you'd improve it?
I think there's a lot a focus on it, which is good.
I think we need to see success stories.
Women need to see other women doing this.
Because they are few and far between.
But I think, there is a problem with the funding.
Most of the funding,
is, if you think about it, coming from
a fairly cookie-cutter type of white male.
And they are interested in products for white males.
You know, surprise, surprise.
So, I think that's an area that needs a bit of attention.
Yes. So some female backed VC, sort of, firms.
Because, you know, it's a wasted opportunity, isn't it?
I mean, 50% of the audiences is female.
Absolutely, yes.
So there are more products to be developed,
there are more solutions to be made
which have a female emphasis.
So, someone clever, needs to put some money in there.
It's interesting, having met a lot of that community.
There is a very, very -- There's a lot of men in it.
And I've probably met --
There's probably about...10% women. It's very underrepresented.
It's very true. So it's a very good point.
So it's not surprising that female founders are underrepresented too.
So, do you feel this is a sort of,
in 'certain years' time, you feel like that,
that would be a career for you to think or?
No. It's not necessarily --
I don't think necessarily me, actually.
I'm not sure my skill set is quite that.
But, you know, who knows.
I have another question for you.
I was just wondering, how you feel about
the sort of role of CEO in society
and what do you think
what do you think, the responsibility of a CEO is?
What do you think the responsibility of the CEO is to society?
Well, I think, there is something in that.
I can see, why you asked that question.
I think actually, a CEO has a responsibility to
lots of stakeholders, really.
There's the staff.
The investors.
And the public or all of their customers.
And I think, the main way I...
think you should look at it is about sustainability.
I think CEOs should think about building sustainable businesses.
Sustainable for their customers, sustainable for their staff
and sustainable for the investor too.
And there are lots of stakeholders and they need to consider them all.
I think the sort of types of businesses which I think,
will increasingly get into trouble but also
maybe we will turn a bit of moral disapproval of
are the ones that are hiring and firing.
Going on this quarter's results are saying, "okay, you're out."
Or you are on zeros hours contract, you're in or you're out.
I don't think that's really a sustainable way to run a business.
It's definitely the people paying for that, are the staff.
So, yeah.
I think it's a fair question, I can see.
And I do believe, CEOs have a responsibility. Yes.
Within Mumsnet, do you have a sort of KPI
that obviously, you know --
I'm sure, revenues and profits are very important to you, but
is there a KPI that, sort of, you know
for the more altruistic side of the sort of business
that you sort a focus on or?
I would say, that is our --
We put purpose before profits genuinely.
- Yes. - So,
we only have -- we have five things that we want to do.
And only one of them is about revenue.
And even then, it's sustainable revenue.
So for us, revenue isn't revenue
unless, it is something that doesn't harm
our community, our brand, our staff.
So yes, we are focused.
Basically, we want to make a great thing
that offers solutions and makes parents' lives easier.
And then if we could make a buck out of it, we will.
- It's not the other way around. - Makes sense.
That's a pretty healthy attitude.
And, in terms of the future,
what would you like to be remembered for?
What do you think, Justine's legacy is?
Well, I think, you know, it's not about me.
Genuinely, I mean that. It's largely about,
this fantastic community where women go out of their way
everyday to help each other.
And so, maybe, Mumsnet can be remembered for demonstrating
that there is such a thing, as society.
And that, people left to their own devices
want to help and connect
- and, be kind. - Yes.
That's fantastic.
Thank you very much for coming in for this interview.
- and I appreciate it. - It's been an absolute pleasure.
I have a great respect for everything you are building
and it's lovely to see someone
with such a sure altruistic vision for your businesses.
It's a brilliant. Thank you.
Thank you. Cheers.
Thanks Justine. That was awesome.
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