SOLEDAD: I'M SOLEDAD O'BRIEN.
WELCOME TO "MATTER OF FACT."
THE 45 WORDS THAT MAKE UP THE
FIRST AMENDMENT ARE BEING TESTED
BY THE 140 CHARACTERS OF
TWITTER.
AT LEAST, THE PRESIDENT'S
TWITTER.
PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ANTI-MEDIA
POSTS AND CHIEF OF STAFF REINC
PRIEBUS' ADMISSION THAT THE
WHITE HOUSE IS LOOKING INTO
OPENING LIBEL LAWS COULD POSE A
THREAT TO FREEDOM OF THE PRESS,
SUGGESTING RETALIATION FOR NEWS
COVERAGE CONSIDERED SLANTED.
ONE LEGAL SCHOLAR SAYS THE
PRESIDENT'S TRAIL OF TWEETS
COULD ACTUALLY PROTECT THE MEDIA
PROVING HIS INTENT TO PUNISH
JOURNALISTS BY USING THE LEGAL
SYSTEM
FLOYD ABRAMS HAS WRITTEN A N
BOOK.
IT IS CALLED "THE SOUL OF THE
FIRST AMENDMENT," TO RE-EDUCATE
US ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF
PROTECTING SPEECH -- EVEN WHEN
WE FIND IT OFFENSIVE.
ABRAMS ARGUED AT THE SUPREME
COURT ON BEHALF OF THE "NEW YORK
TIMES" IN THE PENTAGON PAPERS
CASE DURING THE NIXON
ADMINISTRATION AND HAS BEEN BACK
IN COURT MANY TIMES SINC
DEFENDING REPORTERS AND EDITORS.
IT'S NICE TO SEE YOU, SIR.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
YOU START THE BOOK WITH
FASCINATING LOOK AT OUR NATION'S
FOREFATHER
1787, THE FIRST AMENDMENT, THE
WENT BACK AND FORTH ON THE
PHRASING.
ORIGINALLY, THEY TALKED ABOUT
THE PEOPLE'S RIGHT AND
EVENTUALLY IT SHIFTED TO WHAT
CONGRESS COULDN'T DO.
WHY DOES THE NUANCE MATTER
FLOYD: IT MATTERS BECAUSE THE
LANGUAGE WE WOUND UP WITH --
EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING -
"CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW
CONGRESS LATER BECAME THE
PRESIDENT ALSO AND THE STATES
ALSO
BUT IT BECAME CLEAR A BAN, A
BAR, A LIMITATION ON GOVERNMENT,
WHICH IS THE STUFF OF LAW.
THE FIRST AMENDMENT IS A LAW
IT IS NOT A POEM, NOT
ASPIRATIONAL, NOT JUST A HOPE
FOR THE FUTURE.
IF YOU PHRASE IT THE OTHER WAY,
IF YOU SAY PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE
DENIED THEIR RIGHTS, IT SOUND
AS IF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING --
WOULDN'T THAT BE A GOOD IDEA?
SO THEY DELIBERATELY MADE IT
STRONGER, BY MAKING IT NARROWER.
"CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW
ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH
OR OF THE PRESS."
SOLEDAD: YET WE ARE CONSTANT
GOING BACK AND FORTH ABOUT
WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING IS
PROTECTED BY THE FIRST
AMENDMENT, FOR SOMETHING THAT
WAS SUPPOSED TO BE KIND OF
STRONG.
DO YOU WORRY ABOUT PRESIDENT
TRUMP, WHO HAS MADE HIS DISTASTE
FOR BOTH JOURNALISTS AND THE
FIRST AMENDMENT PRETTY CLEAR?
FLOYD: WELL, YES I AM WORRIED
ABOUT IT.
I THINK SOME AREAS HE'S TALKED
ABOUT HE REALLY CAN'T AND WON'T
BE ABLE TO GET INTO, LIKE LIBEL
LAW.
HE HAS SAID HE WANTS TO LOOSEN
THE LIBEL LAW.
BUT THERE IS NO FEDERAL LIBEL
LAW.
THERE IS NO UNITED STATES LIBEL
LAW.
WE HAVE 50 STATES, THEY HAVE
LIBEL LAWS.
THERE IS NO ROLE FOR THE
PRESIDENT OR THE CONGRESS ABOUT
LIBEL LAW.
AND OF COURSE, IT IS THE FIRST
AMENDMENT WHICH PROTECTS AGAIN
THE STATE LIBEL LAWS SO AS TO
MAKE IT REALLY HARD FOR A
PRESIDENT OR A PUBLIC OFFICIAL
OR A PUBLIC FIGURE TO WIN
LIBEL CASE, PURPOSELY.
LIBEL LAW ONLY APPLIES TO FALS
STATEMENTS OF FACT, NOT OPINION.
NOW AN EXAMPLE, PRESIDENT OBAMA
COULD SUE OUR PRESIDENT AND SAY,
"YOU SAID I COMMITTED A CRIMINAL
ACT BY WIRETAPPING YOU, AND IT
IS NOT TRUE."
THAT IS A LAWSUIT.
SOLEDAD: THE FORMER PRESIDENT
COULD SUE THE CURRENT PRESIDENT
FOR LIBEL?
THAT WOULD BE --
FLOYD: THAT WOULD BE A GREAT
LAWSUIT.
SOLEDAD: WOW, WOW.
CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLARS WILL BE
GOING CRAZY OVER THAT.
LET'S TALK ABOUT PROTESTS ON
COLLEGE CAMPUSES
MOST RECENT ONE IS ANN COULTER
SUPPOSED TO SPEAK AT BERKELEY,
IT SORT OF BECAME THIS BIG FREE
SPEECH DEBATE.
EVEN THOUGH SHE NEVER SPOKE AN
SHE WITHDREW, PROTESTERS MADE IT
CLEAR, AND I AM ROUGHLY
PARAPHRASING, THAT SHE IS
CONSERVATIVE AND SHE DOESN'T
DESERVE TO SPEAK HERE.
PROBLEMATIC BECAUSE BERKELEY IS
A PUBLIC UNIVERSITY.
FLOYD: RIGHT.
PUBLIC UNIVERSITY AND THEREFORE
SUBJECT TO THE FIRST AMENDMENT.
WE TREAT PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES AS
IF THEY WERE THE CONGRESS.
AND SO, IF A PUBLIC UNIVERSI
TREATS HER DIFFERENTLY BECAUSE
SHE IS CONSERVATIVE OR BECAUSE
SHE IS OUTRAGEOUS, THERE COULD
BE A LAWSUIT
SOLEDAD: SO IF SOMEBODY HAS A
RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH, AND WE
KNOW THAT PEOPLE WHO A
PROTESTING, THAT IS ALSO A FORM
OF FREE SPEECH AND THEY HAVE THE
RIGHT TO PROTEST, WHERE IS THE
LINE?
THEY BOTH HAVE A RIGHT.
FLOYD: THEY DO BOTH HAVE A
RIGHT.
AND THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO HECKLE.
WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO
IS TO SHUT PEOPLE UP.
THEY DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO BE S
LOUD, OR SO CONTINUING, OR SO
THREATENING THAT THE SPEECH
SIMPLY CAN'T GO ON.
UNFORTUNATELY, THAT IS WHAT HAS
HAPPENED TOO OFTEN ON COLLEGE
CAMPUSES AROUND AMERIC
WE CAN'T JUST SAY THESE COLLEGE
STUDENTS DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY
ARE DOING.
WE HAVE TO TEACH THEM IN JUNIOR
HIGH SCHOOL AND HIGH SCHOOL, AND
WE DO NEED CIVICS COURSE.
WE DO NEED A LESSON ON AMERICAN
LIBERTY ON A CONTINUING BASIS
FROM THE TIME PEOPLE ARE KIDS.
SOLEDAD: FLOYD ABRAMS, IT IS SO
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