(upbeat music)
- Hey it's Louise Hvala,
and you're watching Gatehouse Insights
On today's episode I'm joined by Jennifer Batrouney QC
and Angela who is a barrister at Greensley's.
Jennifer, Angela thank you for joining me today.
- Thanks, great to be here.
- Thank you for having me.
- So I wanted to begin with mentoring.
Jennifer you've mentored approximately 20 junior to senior
lawyers can you share your experience with mentoring?
- Well they never get away from me
and I think it's probably more than 20
but when I take on mentor, a mentee,
it's a lifetime sentence, you know.
And I find it really rewarding,
it's a two way thing, it's really interesting.
I sort of keep tabs on them,
I think my oldest mentee is, I don't know,
I think I've been mentoring over 10 20 years.
They started off as graduate lawyers
and now they're partners of law firms.
It's wonderful to be able to watch their career
as they go through and also to be able to be there for them
so even though some of them are partners of law firms,
they know that they can come to me
and I have their best interests,
and only their best interests at heart.
So you know I do see it as sort of a lifetime thing
and very rewarding for me and I think they find,
they learn from my mistakes and believe me
there's lots of mistakes I've made to learn from,
so I'm a wealth of information in that sense.
- Jennifer how do they, I suppose,
find you and approach you to be their mentor?
- Well I remember Angela came up to me,
we were at a tax seminar and,
had you started at The Bar when we first met?
- I had started, I did come close to you Jennifer,
this is how I recall it, see I wanna talk about this
because hopefully there are viewers who are very
well qualified to be mentors and I just want
to set the scene for them in terms
of when a mentee wants to approach someone.
So I studied Jennifer's wins in the High Court,
I worked with her cases and here I am at The Bar,
my first couple of months I think
and here's the real person, I think it was at a dinner,
at a function.
And I was just getting closer and I just wanted
to go up and say hi, I was so nervous.
I knew everything I had read about her.
And I was just summoning up the courage
and then Jennifer very kindly turned around
and said "Hi my name's Jennifer Batrouney."
So that itself just opened many doors for me,
it was okay, it set the tone for the dialogue.
It's an open two way thing, you know,
it's not what I had wrongly imagined someone who is
so senior so highly regarded up on a pedestal.
Jenny is like me, how am I different form a bar of soap.
Jennifer could well take that from you
and no one could say anything to criticise her for it
but she didn't she took the exact opposite
and wrenched out her hand to greet me
and say welcome to The Bar,
and I remember you saying I've got my law library
and chambers, you're welcome to come and use.
All those things just made such a huge difference
and it was so welcoming for someone brand new,
to this new institution, organisation,
I don't know how you call The Bar.
- How long have you been in that organisation?
- Six, Seven years, yeah it was in my first few months
that that exchange took place.
- And it's been so successful,
why do you think it's been so successful?
Well, from my point of view Angela is a fabulous junior,
I mean she's just, I did offer some help
at the beginning as she said
but it's turned into an advantage for me
because Angela is my favourite junior,
she writes well, she researches well.
She does everything brilliantly,
so it's worked out a win for me.
And I think Angela has learnt as I say,
from my mistakes and I try and introduce Angela
into the tax discussion group and things like
that just to have an introduction,
to be able to introduce Angela in rather than trying
to cold call people I think that's worked
for both of us I think, yeah?
- I pinch myself about the experiences that I've had.
Not so much from Jennifer's mistakes,
its more from Jennifer is at the level she is at
because she's that brilliance and she takes the time
to train me on it so you can imagine someone with Jennifer's
schedule might just say change this, change that,
go just do it but she doesn't.
She actually stops to say I've made these changes because,
and that allows me to learn.
I'm so grateful, extremely touched to hear
that I am somehow useful to you
but everything I am able to do
is because Jennifer has taught it to me.
It's learning as I go, it would be very silly
of me to try to say I knew all this before I came, I didn't.
I came to The Bar just hoping that I could do my best
and learn some things and have some great experiences
and all these things have certainly come true.
Certainly on the technical side,
that's only one aspect though
of what I learn and see from Jennifer.
There are a lot of practical day to day things
that as a brand new barrister coming to The Bar,
just have to learn how do you do, how do you operate.
So what I mean by that is how do you deal with a difficult
client or opponent or judge that says something
that really puts a spanner in the works?
How do you deal with that on the spot right now?
Really complex legal issues how do you approach it?
Yes we all went to law school,
yes we've all come with some experience before we've come
to The Bar but not at that level, you know,
by the time you want to brief someone
like Jennifer it's pretty tricky.
Otherwise we wouldn't go that level of tax suits.
And also the what I see is next
to impossible time challenges and I see Jennifer
just take it on and just march through it.
Now what that means for me is like I see
that and I'll go back.
Obviously my matters are smaller and less complex.
I'm learning the ropes but when I encounter a challenge,
I've seen how Jennifer deals with it so
at my miniature level I can apply the same
and I can learn to solider on or do I need
to time out and ask someone.
Do I need to approach someone like Jennifer
or maybe someone in a different field.
Whatever I'm working on and knocking on doors
and I've tried to knock this out but I need a bit of help.
So just seeing all those things.
May I continue this, its about timing things.
So to me the number of aspects of this,
so there's the role model side like watching
how she runs her practise and also
because of Jennifer's incredible achievements she is
like a shining light to not just myself but many others.
Like I come to the bar and I think well
if you work hard and you work smart, its possible.
You know people speak of glass ceilings or whatever
and Jennifer's smashed them by a mile
so it doesn't stop my thinking.
I know I see glimpses of how hard Jennifer works
and I know its not a smooth ride,
its not handed to you on a platter
but what I see is that it is possible.
And then on the tricky days maybe when I'm doing something
on my own or I encounter difficulties
and I know that Jennifer's only a phone call or email away.
So I know that when I feel like I have been kicked
in the teeth then I usually sometimes drop her a line
and just say look this is what's happened
and I feel you know terribly down
and Jennifer always comes back
with just encouragement and support
and it might just be a sentence,
just those words that I needed to hear
at that moment to keep going and not give up.
And the final thing and I will shut up sorry.
Normally the leader speaks and the junior stays silent,
- I like it. - I'm taking this opportunity.
The glimpses of how the senior legal world operates is
what I get to see through hanging out
with Jennifer if I could call it that.
Its just by being around her.
You know we work together on matters.
We have lunches or coffees or whatever the case may be.
She does what she does and sometimes I'm just there.
And I just get these little snippets
and its certainly for me to look up to
and to have all this as my day to day life,
to me its bigger than my legal practise, its my life,
its part of what I get to see and part
of what I love about what I get to do.
So thank you.
- How often do you see Jennifer?
- [Angela] If a matter is on its almost everyday.
- [Jennifer] Almost every day.
- We also, on a number of I mean not so much
in the current period because
of Jennifer's presidency at the Victorian Bar.
Outside of that we're on a number
of committees together that Jennifer's recommended to me
and it certainly pays dividends.
Now its not necessarily because you're on that committee,
you came three times last year,
here's a brief but it just oils all the wheels.
You know like when I go to,
Jennifer and I both practise in tax predominantly,
when I go to a function or an event
or something like that or if my name does pop up
as a shortlisted junior for a case or something,
these people have somehow heard
of me, known me, seen me, etc.
So I don't know when that might pop up
and its never expressly explained back to me
but it does put me on the scene and it never hurts
to be put on the scene under Jennifer's reign.
You know going into meetings saying I'm here
as Jennifer's alternate normally you know its a good start.
Its a very healthy start.
- [Louise] Angela what do you find
you can take away from this?
- There's been so much but one that will sit
in my heart forever is how she reached out
to me and what she's done for me and continues to do for me.
And my gratitude for that and I have no means to repay her
so its about how I could pay it forward
so what is really stuck in my mind
and what I try to do as much as I can even
at a junior level everyday is how can I extend
that opportunity, that possibility to someone else.
So for example at my level it might be a law student
or it might be a recent graduate
but what can I do for them, how can I pay it forward?
(inaudible)
- Oh what have I learned from?
Angela is so organised.
You know the minute a solicitor will send us an email saying
you know we're thinking about doing this, this
and this within minutes Angela will come back
with a draught email for me to review
to respond to the solicitors.
Now how good is that?
Angela is very, very organised
and her work is excellent so I've learned
that much from Angela, to be very organised.
- And Jennifer how do you assist I suppose your mentees
in transitioning to life at the bar?
- Well that's an interesting question
because a lot of them haven't come to the bar.
So one of my mentees as I said is a partner of a law firm.
One's up in the, working for one
of the land's counsels up in Queensland.
One of them is in the environment defender's office.
A lot of them they've gone in all different fields
of endeavour and that enriches my experience
as a mentor because I can hear back from them
as to how their career's are going.
So as far as the Bar is concerned I say
to them that the Bar is the best career you can ever have.
It is fabulous at the Bar.
There are no time sheets, there are no budgets,
you're self-employed, effectively you can work when
and where you want to and you can schedule in your holidays.
I don't think Angela does enough of that
but you know it is a fabulous place to work and to be.
It is an enormous family, its like a college at the Bar.
And we look after our own at the Bar.
It was five years until I came to the Bar
after I'd been a solicitor at what is now Ashurst
and when I got here I thought,
"gee why didn't I come sooner?"
And I didn't come from a family from the law.
We didn't even know a lawyer in my family.
We're a family of school teachers.
So its not like daddy was a judge or anything like that.
I'm sure it would help if you had a lot of contacts.
You would have been the same and I think
that's why Angela and I resinate so much is
that we share that experience of not having,
you know, a blue blood legal family
that you could sort of build on their legacy.
You've got to start from scratch
but having done that I think we're both done it very well
but hard work and networking,
you know that's what gets you there.
- I wanted to move on to cultural diversity
because it is a big topic in the legal profession.
Angela I want to start with you
and I wanted to see if you could share your experiences
and challenges in law coming from an Asian background.
- Yeah sure I was born overseas,
I was born in Hong Kong and my family migrated
to Australia when I was still in primary school.
When I completed high school I did a commerce degree
and started working at an accounting firm
and no one was surprised about that,
that was completely within the norms.
There was a huge interest and curiosity inside me
about the law and I decided to study law
and then moved across to a law firm
so private practise being a solicitor.
That was still okay.
It was when I decided to come to the Bar,
I was starting a bit of an unusual step
and so some interesting comments started
to come through then.
I remember a friend who is a lawyer that said to me,
"you don't look like a barrister."
And this was very shortly after I had started the Bar role
and also when I meet new people so for example,
other lawyers at a CPD or something like
that I receive comments like,
"you're the only Asian female barrister I know."
So it strikes me as a need to change perception maybe,
to broaden out what people might think
when they imagine a barrister.
- What are you doing now to change people's perception?
- I actually try to speak and attend
as many events as I can, not so much for myself
and for those who already know me
but just to get the image out there.
There's a story that really stuck with me
and that was when I heard about a
high school student attending a career's night
with her parents and the career's advisor said
to them of the daughter's aspirations
to be a lawyer that well you can't
because you're Asian and female and that hit me pretty hard.
And I have since then decided
to use my physical being as a rebuttals.
If I can get out there and if people can see me
then hopefully they will know that
that is not an accurate statement to make.
That they're not the boundaries
for what make a lawyer or not.
- Do you feel there are a number of issues
that may prevent Asian legal practitioners
from succeeding at the Bar or within the legal profession?
- No, none.
There's absolutely no reason why a barrister of Asian origin
or Indian origin shouldn't succeed at the Bar.
You know I'm very disappointed to hear
that these comments have been made about Angela.
You know I find that Angela is the best junior barrister
that I have been able to find and to me the fact
that she's Asian is neither here nor there.
Now I understand that doesn't address the issues
that you've been facing but there's no reason
that they should not succeed and you know I'm disappointed
to hear that these things are being said.
The Victorian Bar does have an equality
and diversity committee.
We are trying to address these issues so on our website,
for example, there are photographs of Asian barristers
and indeed in our Bar offices.
I think there is a nice photo of you, Angela.
- I'd like to request that room to be named in my name.
- Yeah so you know its something
that can't be done overnight but having
that sort of imagery around to reinforce
that you know there should be no reason
why they shouldn't be treated exactly the same as us.
- And I just want to pick up on the point
about its not just Asian or female,
its diversity across the board to me
so I can sit here and quite comfortably talk
about my experiences coming in the form I do
which is Asian and female.
I hope that my comments can be considered
in the context of all sorts of cultural backgrounds,
gender, sexual preferences or any other form
of diversity that people come in.
And to me its an important issue because
if you consciously or
unconsciously block out certain characteristics I suppose,
you're cutting out the talent.
You're just simply reducing the pool
and I think that's something
that doesn't benefit the clients or whatever issue
or matter it is that your trying to solve.
- Do you think that I suppose especially
for graduates coming out from uni and going into law firms,
do you think that they have a belief
that they won't succeed because of their background?
Whether that be Asian, European or lets say Indian.
- You've probably had more experience in that area.
Angela's sat on Victorian Bar student engagement committee.
Are you still on that committee?
- No, I stepped down after.
- What are their thoughts?
- Look it may well be mixed and it may well depend
on who they've come across in their paths.
So if I could make a comparison to
when I as a practitioner and then coming
to the Bar and seeing women
like Jennifer achieve the heights that she has.
I come to the Bar and I don't think gender is an issue.
I'm not saying there's no issue there its just from my lens.
I practise predominantly in tax
and there's some very eminent tax judges
on the bench so tax silks, tax judges
a female, gender to me is not a hurdle.
Its sort of a hindrance.
It may well present challenges but its not a blocker.
Now imagine a student coming
from maybe different experiences
and different backgrounds and say
in the context of an Asian female.
If there's a student that's Asian female
and they look to the senior ranks
within the legal profession, there's not much to see.
And that's probably an area that will take time
but probably is worth addressing so
that they do see those role models out there
so that they know that its not a barrier.
- And you're a perfect example now.
- So I'm doing what I can.
- And the Bar also has a lot
of indigenous mentoring policies as well.
We have don't enough indigenous barristers
but certainly there is a fund there
to support barristers when they come to the Bar
and we work with the judges in the Supreme Court
and the Federal Court have sort of a cadet-ship type programme
for encouraging indigenous law students to come to the Bar.
So you know the Bar is working so
that we try and tell the world a barrister
is not necessarily a white, elderly male.
(laughter)
- Do you see any I suppose obstacles of people
with Asian heritage going to the Bar from your experience?
- Well I have no experience in that.
- Probably fortunately for me I didn't think about it.
I just came.
I just came and gave it a shot so had I overthought it,
maybe or I may have been stopped
at other challenges about coming to the Bar.
I don't think anyone says coming to the Bar is easy.
Its rewarding and its challenging but no one says its easy.
So I could've been stopped at sort
of cultural diversity challenges
or gender challenges or just the self-employment challenge
or how would I get work challenge
so it could have been any of those factors.
- Angela, have you faced any I suppose challenges
of being briefed by lets say law firms because
of lets say being from an Asian background or being female?
- Not to my knowledge.
I think my experience might be a very fortunate one
but I can't speak for everyone else.
I am very fortunate to work with people like Jennifer.
And I'm not sure that you would accept a comment
like no she can't be our junior
because of her cultural background.
I'm not sure.
- No, absolutely not.
- I can't imagine that conversation being had.
That's not to say it doesn't happen
and also you know unconscious bias
is a hot topic these days and its something
that I would never get a grip on.
So no one will call me and say there was this brief
but we thought about you or didn't think about you
because of the way you appear.
You know its very hard to tally.
- The former Chief Justice, Marilyn Warren is well known
for saying that when she was
at the bar she received a brief arrived
in her chambers from a big law firm
and then five minutes later the partner rang
and said sorry Marilyn wrong gender
and took the brief back again.
So that obviously was a long time ago
and I would like to think such overt
discrimination would not happen now
but you don't know what you don't know
so I don't know how many times there's been a list
of barristers put forward and my name has been overlooked
because I'm a female or because I had small children.
You don't know what you don't know
but we do know from the statistics
that women are not being briefed
in the same percentage as they make up at the Bar.
We are working on unconscious bias.
We think that is a big thing so
if you are not like me I will not brief you
and because its unconscious bias people are not aware
that that filter is being applied
to who they want to brief so its education.
You know we need to get people to understand.
Understand it and once you understand unconscious
bias you can take steps to go around it.
- Jennifer what else are you doing
with firms to help overcome that unconscious bias?
- Well the Victorian Bar has a different system
to the New South Wales Bar.
We have clerks so each clerk has 100
or so barristers and the clerks are well aware
of who are their brightest and best barristers
and so we're encouraging the law firms to use the clerk
as a filter and the clerks are aware of unconscious bias.
We have trained them on that.
And they will put forward the brightest and the best.
And guess what, guess who the brightest
and the best often are, not always, often its the women.
So you know I think if solicitors
instead of going back to the same old male silks they've
always briefed if they go to the clerks and ask,
"who is the talent at the Bar?"
Who are the up and coming, bright, young things?
The clerks will do the right thing.
I'm certain of that.
- Jennifer have you seen it change over the last ten years?
- I don't know about the last ten years
but certainly when I started at the bar
it was very much an all boys club.
That has changed a lot.
I mean I've been at the Bar
for 27 years now so that's a long time.
You know just to give you an example,
we have a member's club,
our club which is called the Essoign Club.
When I started that was a club that was the top
of the floor on Dixon East.
It was a dark, smoky place and there were blokes sort
of lining the bar and you had to walk past this sort
of kettle crush to get into the club.
You know that's totally changed now.
The new club is open, its airy,
its like a cafe and that's sort of indicative
of the way the whole Bar has changed.
You know when I started there hardly any women at the bar,
hardly any women judges.
Now you know again we're not at full percentage
but its ordinary, its normal to see women barristers,
its normal to see women judges.
So things are changing and I don't think its time
to be complacent.
I think that we need to keep working on this.
And we do with our diversity committee.
And as Angela said its not just women these days,
there are a range of diversity initiatives
that we're undertaking.
- Jennifer, do you train,
or suppose undertake training with men as well?
- We have male champions of change at the Bar.
That's been headed up by President Maxwell
from the Court of Appeal so look most
of the men at the Bar are you know sensitive, new-age guys.
You know a lot of them got daughters who are at the Bar.
So we do undertake training
and we will continue to undertake training.
And its not just sit down and listen
to this lecture type training.
Its training in the message, the culture, the environment.
Its leadership you know under my leadership
and I know under the leadership that's coming
through we will be promoting a very inclusive environment
so that people of all walks
of life will feel welcome and at home at the Bar.
So that whoever it was that said
that you can't come to the Bar
because you're an Asian to that student,
we're hoping that that will no longer happen.
That it will be normal to see Asian barristers.
It will be normal to see women barristers.
So we're working very hard on that.
- [Louise] How long do you both think
before that change happens?
- Ah well, you know I can't give you an exact time
but its not an overnight process.
You know it is a very intricate process
and it requires a sustained, long-term effort.
And looking at who will come through the Bar,
I know that that sort of leadership is ingrained
in the Bar counsel and that you know
we can look forward to that process continuing.
- And I think that its a process
that can pick up momentum because the more you can get
in terms of cultural diversity out there seen,
the more it normalises it and no longer
becomes a talking point and that's what I hope for.
- Angela can you share some words
of wisdom for I suppose females
with an Asian background coming through either
with that being a legal profession or coming to the Bar?
- I'd say go for it.
Be prepared to work very hard and very smart
and by that I'm referring to the networking activities
that Jennifer's spoken about.
Be seen, be out there.
And combine those two and also seek out
and work with the guidance and advice that you get.
You know in the event you do stumble
across someone who's not supportive
for whatever reason thank you very much,
move on, find someone who will guide you,
who will support you and thank them and hang on to them.
(laughter)
Sorry.
- [Louise] Stuck with you for life.
(laughter)
- The life sentence is more this way.
(laughter)
And I think don't let anyone tell you your odds.
- Jennifer any last points?
- Well as I say hard work that's number one,
hard work, network, yeah that's what it is.
- Jennifer, Angela thank you very much.
- Thank you Louise, glad to be here.
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
(laughter)
- Now we would love to hear from you.
What is the biggest insight you're taking away
from today's conversation?
Comment and share below and let us know.
If you like this episode please subscribe
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and I'll catch you next time on Gatehouse Insights.
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