- [Announcer] It's Wednesday at 5 PM Eastern,
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it's time for another episode of #EventIcons
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Now, without any further delay, this is #EventIcons.
- Hello everybody and welcome to EventIcons.
The place where you get to chat with the icons
of the event industry.
I'm Brandt Krueger.
- And I'm Audrey.
- And my name is Will Curran.
- And today we're gonna be talking about
round three of,
what shit event planners say,
there's no good way to say it other than that.
It's gonna be, this is going to be one where you
don't want to be playing it on your Google Home,
your Alexa if your kids are around.
This is round three of Aaron Kaufman talking about
shit event planners say.
It's gonna be enticing, it's gonna be engaging,
it's gonna be controversial.
Do not miss this episode and be sure that you
comment, question, and in general,
make Aaron work for it!
(Audrey laughs)
He won't evade it, so be prepared, let's go.
- And with us today I want to introduce our guest.
We have Aaron Kaufman, of course,
who is the president of Fifth Element Group.
It's safe to say that Aaron is a rising
international resource in a very competitive industry,
which we'll talk about today.
So Aaron, it's great to have you back, hello.
- Hi how you doing?
I think this is episode six that I've been on.
- Woo!
- (audio cuts out) Consecutive of shit event planners say,
and the 125th episode of EventIcons,
so congratulations to you guys for an amazing success.
- Thanks, woo! - That's a good number.
- We have to start a leaderboard,
who's been on more episodes?
I feel like we talked about that a couple episodes ago.
And we probably need to start doing that,
keep track of who's been back the most.
- Yeah, that'd be good.
- So I want to introduce Tanya as well, Tanya Scagnol,
which I know can be pronounced in a much better way
than what I just said.
- Wait, we have to hear her say it.
- Tanya Scagnol (chuckles).
(everyone laughs)
- Wait, what's the Italian way to say it, though?
- All right, Tanya Skanyol.
- There is it, there it is (laughs).
Tanya's also with Element Group
and as we know, everything we know about you Tanya
is that you're Italian,
and you love talking about millennials,
so that's what we're gonna do today
and just a reminder for everyone who is connected,
make sure that you join the conversation
on Facebook, on Twitter, use the Zoom Q&A panel,
this is your time to ask the questions to the icons.
So, let's go ahead and jump in.
We always like to get us warmed up
and I think Aaron we already know this about you,
but we want to know again,
maybe your story's changed
but what has really, what's your story?
What got you into the event industry
and if you weren't in the event industry,
what would you be doing?
- Yeah, if I wasn't in the event industry,
I could be in prison.
(everyone laughs)
- That's true.
- Yeah, yeah, true,
for using brass knuckles randomly.
- Brass monkeys.
- Yeah, absolutely.
No, listen, I got into the event industry
kind of just out of chance and worked my way through.
You know I'm not sure what I'd be doing
if I wasn't doing this, it kind of
saved me because, you know, when I was growing up
it wasn't really cool to not be good in school
and so it was one of those things that,
getting into this and being able to have an outlet
for creativity and also, you know,
being able to be considered a leader
in the industry of events
without 10 years of education and MBA,
and all those types of things is something that I think
was life saving for me
and so here I am and I have a great pedestal
to speak from and I have a great,
I think I have a great platform to be able
to change the way the industry is run,
and the way that people see the industry
and I think hopefully,
before I'm done, I'm gonna be able to make some impact.
- I think that's a general life goal
is connecting the work that we do
to greater impact in the world, so that's awesome.
Tanya, I want to ask you as well,
what got you into the event industry
and working with Aaron, of course,
and if you weren't doing this what would you be doing?
- Okay, I started working for the Toronto Blue Jays,
which was more like sort of sports oriented events,
and I decided or sort of came to understand
that I like designing events.
From there, I kind of went into the wedding industry and
now I'm working with Aaron doing corporate,
doing corporate events and designing some
awesome, creative
things in the event industry,
so I guess
my niche is designing and I have no idea
what I would be doing if it wasn't for this (laughs).
- It was a good, high quality poach on my part.
- Nice.
- I have a question, Tanya, because Aaron obviously said,
hey, we gotta get Tanya on this show,
how did Aaron describe what this episode
was all about?
- (laughs) He didn't tell me very much because
this is something that I can say I've never done before
so he's just kind of like,
you'll get to learn and see what everybody talks about but
he said it was quite controversial (laughs)
and he's in it to stir the pot.
- Love it.
- Love it.
That's awesome.
And Aaron, what have you been, in the past year or so,
what have you been up to,
like anything cool, any cool news to share?
- Yeah, I mean, obviously you know that I'm gonna start
by reminding everyone about the SEARCH Foundation.
The awesome work that it's doing.
It's jumped leaps and bounds from where it was
even a year ago.
We have an amazing program, which is the Search 100,
which is people giving $100 a month
in perpetuity until you die
and so (laughs), it's been an amazing program for us.
Here at Fifth Element,
a couple of things that we've done, I think,
we're really working hard to kind of
change the event industry
and really focus on live experiences.
So I think that's something we spent a lot of time
over the last year working on.
The other exciting thing is that
we opened an office in the United States of America
in Chicago and we're loving that and have an amazing
producer there, Erica Lomar, who's running that office
and doing an amazing job,
so we've been privileged to do some really
unbelievable events across the US in the last year
and that's been cool
but I've yet to be invited to Arizona.
I know an ILEA chapter there has promised me as well,
so I'm hoping to get there real soon.
- Good thing I don't book the speakers (laughs).
- Absolutely.
(everyone laughs)
- All right, well, you guys ready to start diving in?
- Let's hit it!
- Okay, well here's the first one that we've got for you
and it's a pretty good one, nice little softball
for you to start out with, so here you go.
We really need to book someone really famous
to make this event successful.
- Go book someone famous?
(Brandt laughs)
- Cool!
- Go ahead, Aaron.
- You know listen, first of all,
I think number one,
booking someone famous isn't necessarily
all it's cracked up to be,
so I think you want to make sure that that person
is advancing the message,
or doing some good for whatever the cause is, right?
If you're just looking to book somebody famous
for the sake of having someone famous,
I guess that's a thing you can do,
but ultimately I think the experience of the whole thing
is far more important than the person who's there
and so I think that's something we need to start
looking at as an industry,
the basics of it,
the who, the what, the where and the why is so crucial
and we focus a lot around the why,
so I think that's something that, you know,
great, you want to go book someone famous,
call a booking agent.
I could give you a list of 10 real good ones but
unless you're sure that you need someone famous, why bother?
- What about the response that, you know,
that you need that for some kind of draw?
That you know, with everybody looking,
associations and things like that,
really desperately trying to get
more membership, more people,
what about that push back that you need,
you need that big name in order to get people
to come to your event?
- I mean I don't think you do,
I think what you need is, you need an overall experience.
You need an overall idea of what,
what the purpose behind the event is.
I mean, people are going to come for the cause
and so I'm working with an unbelievable charity
in Chicago right now who does amazing work
on Angelman syndrome, for example,
and it's called Fast
and they get a great mix of celebrity
and non-celebrity, but their favorite part is that
they have a band that they've been working with for years
and they pack the dance floor
and they're not famous, they're just a really
great local band
and I think that that's something that they stay true to
and they could get a famous act, they just don't
because people are coming to have a good time,
to be there and support the cause and I think that
you scale based on the support that you can get
and I think you shouldn't try to throw
a gala for a thousand people
if you don't need to.
I think, at the end of the day,
it's your bottom line and margins
that you need to be looking at
and I think, as an industry, because we're very juvenile
when it comes to a lot of those principles,
we don't get that part and most other business do.
- I was gonna say something, too.
I think it also creates this like crappy rabbit hole
to go down too, right?
You book someone famous and then most events,
people want to do them multiple times,
no one's here out to be like, I'm gonna do that once
and that's it, right?
Usually, when it's yearly, you book someone huge,
how are you gonna top that again next year?
You're gonna get to this point where, before you know it,
you're gonna need to bring Tupac back alive
with a hologram.
(everyone laughs)
- And how many times do you see like,
how many times can you say,
oh, we have American Idol alumni, Ruben Studdard,
famous Ruben Studdard on the stage.
It's not, you know what I mean?
That's not famous because you can toss a name out.
I'd rather see the energy of a great band,
like a Jordan Kahn or someone really wonderful
who's there because they want to be there
and really putting their best effort
as opposed to a three song set
by a guy who was on TV 15 years ago.
- Well I think, Will, your question is interesting
because we had,
my company, several years ago, we got Justin Trudeau
and that was amazing and magical,
because it's Justin Trudeau
and the next year our entire team were literally
pulling out our hair to figure out,
how do we meet that caliber,
or what do we do to pivot and
I think a lot of times we make assumptions
about what the expectation our attendees have.
So if they're coming back the next year,
I don't think they're necessarIly thinking
that we're getting another global politician in the room,
unless that's something that was overtly promised
and so, I think to your point, Aaron, it is about
what is the story that you're delivering
and the experience that you're delivering beyond just
an amazing time with one person?
So it's how do you strike that balance,
and how do you communicate that with your clients?
- Sure.
- Mic drop (laughs).
- It's Justin Trudeau,
you don't need to say anymore than that, right?
- (sighs) He's so pretty.
- Go Canadian.
- I had the next shit event planners say,
really quickly before we go into it,
the audience is blowing up.
Jaime actually just joined in,
said, "Joined in just in time," so perfect timing Jaime
and also our friend, a very common friend of ours,
Nick Morelli is out in the audience right now
and he's talking about influencers
and micro influencers versus regular influencers
and everything like that.
If you want to, go check out Nick's episode.
He was on where we talked about that
and I think Nick brings up a good point
that we should look at, instead of trying to get these
really expensive people that apply to everyone,
instead look for those micro influencers that can bring
little smaller instances.
- He's got to be in the running for number
of shows as well.
- And listen, if you need help with any of that stuff,
you can go to www.nickmorelli.com.
= (laughs) Plug.
Alright, we'll take our
commission check later, Nick, thanks.
(Aaron laughs)
So, we actually have a question from the audience,
shit event planners say, Hans Etmann,
who's also been on the show,
we got like, all the people come back for this episode,
Hans, great to have you here,
he's saying, "I'm sorry, we can't pay the moderator
"because we already spent the budget on this
"awesome venue."
I think that probably could be mixed in with
speaker or pretty much any,
well, what's your thoughts on spending too much
money on venues?
- Full stop, I'm not paid to be here.
Okay so, we're gonna get a little bit of energy
into this and I think I said this before but,
if you are getting education from someone who's
not being paid to educate,
you're getting bullshit education,
so, our industry and I know we're gonna touch
on a lot of topics in the next 45 minutes or so but
this is one that I'm hard stop onto real quick.
If you're taking education from people
just because they're free,
likely it's not the right education,
so start paying your speakers.
I don't care what it is,
if a high caliber speaker is prepared to work
for an association for a reduced rate,
I'm good with that but some kind of qualification for it,
so I think, for example and I know, for example,
Nick is watching and he's a very niche-targeted speaker
in our industry, in terms of what he speaks about
and he's considered an expert in our industry.
Well, if someone doesn't wanna pay Nick and he
were to decline an offer to speak for free,
what are they gonna do?
Well, we need to have someone in marketing,
so they're gonna go down to option B,
well, if option B won't speak for free,
option C because the associations and everybody
feel like they need to cover certain topics.
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, stop it.
So what we need to do is we need to have
a real list, a real educated, well rounded
experienced group of speakers who are all delivering
the same message because what happens is,
when you have young speakers and older speakers,
everyone's delivering a different message.
How is it possible for our industry to strife,
so I think that's one really important thing.
It's not about spending more on the venue,
more on the decor, more on the lighting,
just make sure that you have a budget for speakers
and you use it appropriately for the topics
that require different caliber of speakers.
So, do you need to pay a design speaker
as much as you might a Nick, no,
because Nick is highly specialized in what he does
and there are many good designers who can speak
on their method of design,
as long as you're getting someone qualified to do so.
So you have great speakers like a David Merrill,
for example, who is very qualified to speak on his
brand of design, obviously
but I think, again, when people start diluting,
going to the B and the C and the D option,
that's just awful and it's like you've gone
through your whole bullpen already and you
allow your third basemen to pitch 'cause it's 19-nothing
and nobody cares anymore (laughs), right?
- It's not 19-nothing, I mean,
we're like, stakes are so much higher
and it's more like 19-18 and you brought
the bullpen.
- Absolutely, but you're getting shit education for free.
You get what you pay for.
- Yeah and what do you remember at the end of the day,
what do we want our attendees to remember,
an amazing decor or a life changing speaker
and that's something that you balance all the time,
so, okay, I have one that I want to address and
Tanya, I know you mentioned moving into corporate events
and I wanna ask you and this is a personal question for me
because this is something I'm struggling in my organization
to influence, so, we have our sponsors,
we have our sponsors for our breakout sessions,
our sponsors need to get on a panel so they can
get visibility and so,
all of a sudden we have panels happening in every single
breakout session because we think that's what
sponsors need and it ends up being incredibly boring,
so, how do you respond to that,
how do you manage the perceived expectation
of what a sponsor wants and how you define visibility?
- Uh (laughs).
- I'm making you problem solve on the spot, sorry Tanya.
- I'd say that I usually don't deal with sponsorship so,
it's not my zone of expertise but I guess Aaron
would be the one to talk to how we deal with that
and I would be the one to sort of deal with how
it's designed and the flow of the event.
- I think that's actually the most important point,
so, for us, for example, it's not about just,
here's your panel, because you need to have that visibility,
it's about designing an experience,
so, Tanya's right when she says
she wouldn't necessarily,
she's not the specialist when it comes to
procuring sponsors and making sure that those
contracts are dealt with but what she does
is she'll say to a sponsor once they're on board
and everything's set, okay, you need exposure,
here's three potential design options
or here's a way we can do that for you.
Let's create an experience around that and so,
our mandate as a live experience firm,
because we don't call ourselves an event company anymore,
is that each facet of it creates an experience
that a delegate is going to remember and so,
for Tanya, her job is simply to say,
how am I going to get all the delegates
to remember you sponsored this
and if it's by putting that person up on stage,
then great, oftentimes with Fifth Element
sponsors something,
people want me on a stage because I'm probably
gonna curse or say something controversial and
people are gonna remember that
but when a sponsor ends up in her lap,
it's, let's make an experience for them
that people aren't expecting,
something Instagram-able, something you can talk about,
something that's memorable,
something that provides education on that person's brand
outside of just that person talking about it
and I think that's super important.
- Exactly, yeah, so Tanya, you can answer the question
because you are thinking way beyond panels,
that's your answer.
- That's right, that's right,
we definitely build the experiences,
whether it's the way that their brand is set up
or the way that the actual room looks,
maybe something that's not usual,
just a screen and someone standing there and
a bunch of chairs, that's the typical,
run-of-the-mill way.
So yes, you're right (laughs).
- And I saw a couple people in the chat
saying panels suck anyway
so we should probably not do them (laughs).
- Yeah,
I've been on a couple of panels in my life and I think
we can all determine how that worked out, so.
- Yeah, I think (audio cuts out) panel works,
if you're a panelist, your sole goal is to try
to talk as much as possible,
so then you get in a fighting competition
of who can talk the most, no one wants that.
Okay, I got a good one and I'm gonna say it because I
am definitely in this, the group but,
for those that don't know, I'm a millennial, technically,
I think, in age but not in thought (laughs) but
the thing that we hear a lot these days is like
we have to think of the millennials.
The millennials, they love to be on their phones,
we have to figure out how to integrate technology
for the millennials, this and this and this and this,
so I'm gonna kick it over to our resident expert
on millennials, Tanya, how does that make you feel
on the millennial side, when people are just saying,
we have to think of this way,
all that stuff, I'll let you talk about it (laughs).
- Okay, so I think it's certainly something that
needs to be addressed.
If the majority of the people that are working for you
are millennials, there's something to be said that,
the majority of the people that are working
are working in a certain way, so I think,
if it is about integrating things like Instagram,
even Aaron and I, we communicate a lot through Design Tube,
sending each other Instagram pictures,
I don't know about Aaron, who's probably Mr. Instagram
or Mr. Instagrammer before that but I think
him and I communicate a lot using that app
and that's where, of course, an outlet where millennials
tend to spend a lot of time.
- I think not everyone, not everyone can do,
Tanya will take a picture, like doing the regular pose
or whatever and 30 minutes later there's 437 thousand
likes on it and I don't know,
she took one with me like that and we got six, so,
I'm assuming I was negative impact
on her social media status but I will say this though,
one of the interesting things for me and I was
at an NPI conference and they asked me to do a brain day
on this issue and one of the things that came up for me
in particular was,
I don't think millennials are any different,
I think that one of the things that we need to look at is,
when we were getting into the workforce,
so I'm 40 and so (laughs),
when I was getting into the workforce,
there were different ways to communicate
with the generation that were older and
I might have communicated in a bit of a younger man
and now I probably wasn't texting when I got into
the workforce but certainly there were different ways
and one of the interesting ways is fax machine because
when I got into the workforce, faxes were a thing
but everyone would be like, what's a fax?
How are we gonna do that, can't you just put it in the mail
and I'd be like, well, it'd be far faster if I faxed
it to you, you can sign and fax it right back to me
and so now it's like DocuSign and some of the people
are like, well, why do I need to do that,
why can't you just email and I'll print it and scan it
and I think it's just the maturity of technology
that people mistake for a generational difference,
so as much as it's important for millennials to understand
what the older generation
or more experienced generation want,
it's important for the more experienced generation
to adjust the way that they communicate too because
Tanya, who's 10 years younger than me,
would have grown up with far more technology
than I did, even though we have a smaller age gap
than myself and let's say, someone who's 60 or 70
and so, I think it's just a matter of understanding that
I need to know the way that she communicates,
I also need to understand that someone who's 60 or 70
probably doesn't want an Instagram message
and would prefer images in an email and a PowerPoint,
whereas Tanya doesn't need that,
I can fire off a picture that I pulled
from Instagram somewhere and be like,
isn't this a cool concept and she'll write something
based on that and I think it's just understanding that
how you grew up is how you're gonna continue to communicate.
- Well said.
- The vast majority of things that were said about
generation X are exactly the same things that are
being said about millennials and generation Z
and I think it, personally, and I don't mean to
chime too much into this,
this is just something that really irks me as well (laughs)
because gen X was, gen X, gen X, gen X, gen X, gen X
and I think it's more about being under the age of 30
or under the age of 25,
there's a lot that goes on in that timeframe
no matter what era you're in (laughs).
- Sure, yeah.
- I think the one thing that everyone does need to realize
though is that with millennials,
one of the key things is that
they need to be very concerned by the idea that
people who are older are learning more everyday
about how to use the technologies and the communication
tools and what they fail to realize is that the older
generation will become savvy with these tools
and they need to be smart about how they use them,
so you have people hide information when they apply
for jobs and things like that,
people have to know that
potential employers are going to look at those things
and they're going to use those tools,
even if you might not believe they will and so
I think it's important for millennials to also
understand that the generation will catch up
and this will become a non-factor and then
the next generation will complain about
who we now call millennials.
- So, speaking of that,
I literally, so my nephew was staying with us
for the last week or so and I had to deal with him
and he's 14 and for those who don't know, I'm 28,
so I'm twice his age and I can even see
the difference and I'm getting frustrated with him,
funny story, we were going out to dinner
and we said to him, hey, don't bring your phone
otherwise you have to pay for dinner,
so, of course, he doesn't bring his phone,
but then we said, we'll bet you $100 that you can't
go a day without your phone and he said, no.
He turned down $100 at age 14 to keep his phone
and that's mind blowing to me and I'm a millennial.
- It's Fortnite.
You gotta play Fortnite.
- Yeah and he's like, how dare you
take away my Fortnite (laughs)?
- People are paying tutors to play,
now, I've never played Fortnite,
I'm aware of it but I've never played it
but if someone came to me and said,
hey, what do I do in this situation on Fortnite,
I'd be like, I don't know what the fuck you're
talking about, go ask someone who cares and
move on, right, so, I think it's a generational thing.
- Brandt, I'm gonna let you take the next thing,
what I'll call the pile of shit that we should uncover.
- I'm scanning through them, scanning through it.
- There's so many of them (laughs).
- How about,
corporate events can't change because the executives
might get upset.
That's definitely something we see a lot of times
is you've got that, well, you know,
that's just the way we've always done it
and that's the way Bob likes it and
that's just the way that it is
so we're gonna keep doing this awful thing.
- Okay, so,
I don't know why our industry gets saddles with all
of this nonsense.
So let's just be 100% clear about something,
when the executive at any company goes and hires
their accountant and the accountant comes back and says,
here's how we need to do this for you to shelter
some money from whatever, from being taxed or whatever else
and of course, everything above board,
so let's just assume the accountant comes back and says,
I can save you 20 thousand dollars
if you do this this way.
Do you think the CEO or the CFO's gonna turn and go,
you know what, no, because we've always done it
this other way, so, stop trying to save me money
and stop being the expert in your field and instead,
just do my taxes the way they've always been done.
So, my issue is that, as an industry,
if we're not legitimate enough to convince executives,
CEOs, CMOs, whatever it is,
about why we're experts and why we believe that
things should be done a certain way,
than what are we doing?
Well, we're designing cool looking, fun parties
and we do not want to be party planners because
party planners don't make money,
so, this is one of the fundamental issues in our industry
and I've been doing a talk around North America on
what CMOs look for in events and
especially when I'm working with Tanya
and our design team here,
one of the things I talk about is everyone wants
to talk about ROI, what's the ROI on my event?
Of course, everyone knows ROI is return on investment
and if you research ROI, you learn very quickly
that ROI is a financial term made for banks and bankers,
so what should we be looking for?
Well, there is the quantifiable formula for ROE,
which is return on engagement,
so let's start talking about that and let's start
using terms that make sense
so that executives, so you're talking
on a executive level.
If an executive feels like
he's talking to a kindergarten child,
he's not gonna want to take that child's perspective
and I think that that's often the way they look at us
and so when we sit down to design an event,
the first thing we talk about is
where does the impact need to be,
where does the engagement need to be
and this is why having someone like Tanya on our team
is so important because she understands how to make
that happen and how to show value so that when we
go into a client, it's not just,
here's your cool party but if I go back to one
of the first things I said,
it's why are we doing this?
Why should you let us do this?
Why is this important for you to do
and here's how we're going to accomplish your objectives.
So we never just say, okay, here's your event,
we wanna know why.
What's important to you
and even for a corporate event or a meeting,
what's important?
Is it important for your employees to feel more engaged?
Is it important for them to feel excited?
Is it important, like what's the meaning behind
what you're doing and how can we add some real simple
terms to it and make you realize that we're experts
in this field, we study this field,
we have designations in our field,
although there's way too many of them
and they mean nothing but we have them and so,
I think that that's one of those things that
when you have a well rounded company,
if a CEO is going to a decor company
and looking for new results,
it's not happening,
so I think you have to have a well-rounded company
that is constantly being educated and constantly
learning and constantly growing and understanding that
experience is what matters and the event matters not at all.
- How do you push back on that to when,
it's usually not phrased, 'cause that's the way we've
always done it, that's usually the subtext, right,
it's what's lurking underneath and I've seen so many
of those shows from the back of tech table where
every year the CEO comes up and has his little speech
that he does every single time and I've got a very
specific person in mind, that's why it's a he (laughs).
He literally did it every year, the same speech and
if you even tried to challenge that
and like, you know, hey, maybe we could end with
some music or something like that,
no, that's just, that's what he does,
so how do you handle that when clients push back
at you like that?
- I mean, the truth of the matter is that I'll go
to someone and just say, well, if it's always the
way you've done it, why are you coming to me now
and I'll give you a great example,
so we do the Toronto region Board of Trade
is on their 131st annual dinner.
They came to us at 127 and they said,
we have to start changing things and
what we've done is we've taken some baby steps,
it's 1500 C level executives who walk into a room
for a two hour dinner.
They all get to show their faces and do whatever
and there's a big speaker,
last year was Dan Doctoroff,
bring in a bunch of C level people to talk but
a couple years ago we finally said, you know what,
we're gonna do an opening sequence to this
and we brought in this amazing drum crew
who's gonna come up on the stage and then
we all sing "O Canada" and everything else but
we brought the drum crew as a parade past
the head table and the mayor was sitting there and
our premiere, which is like your senator, was sitting there
and the whole bit and
at first, the CEO of the Board of Trades said to me,
we can't do this, the mayor's gonna be very upset
that drummer's are coming past his ear and the premiere's
not gonna like it and whatever else
and of course, after,
we did this big intro and then everyone was quiet
much faster and the flow went better and the premiere
came up to me after and said that was really fun,
whether he liked it or not, didn't matter
but it worked and so the following year we got to do
something a little more fun and then we added,
stick around after for some drinks and some networking
and we then added that value to the sponsorship package
to say, here, if you're gonna buy the prefunction area,
you now get a post-party and you can do a giveaway,
you can activate whatever you wanna do in it and
so I think showing tangible results,
whether it's staying more on schedule because
you've added something in
and we all know, for example,
as opposed to someone getting on the stage
and going, shh, 10 times,
if you show a really high impact video
and then it ends and the lights comes onto the stage,
you know that most everyone's gonna be quiet at that point.
They know the program is starting,
so I think showing some tangible results
in some of the changes you're making
and gaining the trust of the client really is going to help
in that area (audio cuts out) and
for me and for us, that's something that I think
is really important.
- This episode is so therapeutic (laughs).
- It's my calm voice.
- I love it.
Yes and you're a very calming presence, Aaron, yeah.
So, we have so, as Will said,
we have a wonderful pile of shit here.
God, I hate saying that, I'm never gonna say that again,
we've talked about--
- Wait, wonderful pile of shit or just pile of shit?
- Maybe it's better if I say golden pile of shit,
no matter what, I don't like it.
- Call it beautiful, a beautiful pile of shit.
- Yeah, spray painted, I don't know, okay, anyways.
- It's a pretty pile.
- It's a pretty pile.
(everyone laughs)
- I feel like this is gonna be the clip that used
as the highlight reel from the (audio cuts out).
- You're just afraid to look at my Twitter where
Alex is like, quote, "Aaron likes a pretty pile of shit."
(everyone laughs)
- Amazing.
- So I want to go back to generations.
We were talking about perceived differences
with millennials and I completely agree.
I love how you frame the face that it really
comes down to technology and the way that we're
communicating.
In our industry, we also know that we are prone
to ageism, whether it's within our teens
and the expectations on site with clients
and who we showboat and this and that,
so kind of wide open but wanna get your thoughts on
how we are managing ageism.
(Tanya laughs)
- Okay, so,
I don't believe that we have an issue with ageism
and I'm gonna catch a lot of flack for this.
Here's what we do have though,
we have an issue with
everything else, so we have an issue with
barriers entry, we have an issue with continuing education,
we have an issue with legitimacy,
so what happens?
We have this thing where,
when people get into the industry,
there is a major sense of entitlement.
I'm in this industry, I did a cool event,
I was on some kind of top 40 list,
one of the 30 to 40 or 50 of them that exist.
Yep (laughs), so, you know,
there's that and so, once you start to get any sort
of recognition, imagine that every ILEA chapter
and PI chapter, PCMA chapter, they all have awards
and then every major association has their
international awards and every major magazine
has awards and every major list has another list and
every major, you know and so forth and so forth.
I tell you that there was a 40 under 40 list
that came out the other day and I tend to know
a lot of people.
I knew one person on this list.
How does that happen multiple times in a year?
So why doesn't someone just say,
here are the best thousand under 40,
because that's what we're doing,
so I don't think we have an ageism issue,
what I think we have is this issue of young people
have an entitlement issue, I guess and
the older people, 'cause I'm kind of right in
the middle of my career,
so, the older people or the older generation,
I think the issue there is also entitlement.
So they go, I've been doing this for so long,
this industry's only x-amount years old and I've
been a leader in it, so I deserve to stay there.
I don't need to change the industry at all.
So they're still good with a lot of the pricing practices,
their crappy whatever else,
I don't need to change things because I'm making some money,
I'm good,
so I think both sides are very me, me, me, me, me, me
and then you have an unbelievable group of people
right in the middle who are going,
fuck this, time for change,
young people, shut up and work and earn it
and older generation of people,
you have done wonderful things for us
but keep up or go away.
- I've been saying for years that I need to be
on the 40 over 40 list and then somebody,
I saw one not too long ago.
- Yeah, there is one.
- I was like, I was joking,
I didn't know that was a thing.
- Let's be clear about a very important thing.
Ageism is every industry.
Eventually in every industry the practices
of the older generation become antiquated
and the younger generations have the opportunity
and a little bit of entitlement where they can come in
and go, we know how to use technology so much better,
we get information faster,
if you're a stock trader, you can get information faster.
You can do this, you can do that
and then the people right in the middle,
there's the sweet spot
and oftentimes the older generation
take on more of a mentorship role,
so they understand that,
in the natural progression of a career lifecycle,
that's the role they need to take
in order to benefit the company,
in order to benefit themselves,
in order to educate and teach and all those things
and I think that, in our industry,
we don't see that because it's very ego-driven
and the people who, I think the people who
started the industry are still in the industry
and don't necessarily want to pass the torch yet
and the younger people are coming in like
out of fire going, oh, I went to school for this
and I took a six week course and now
I'm charging $300 for day of planning services
and I'm the bomb and that's just (laughs)
shouldn't be the case and you know what,
I'd be interested to hear what Tanya thinks,
being newer to the industry,
but I think having moved from other companies to mine
I would imagine her perspective's changed but
she'd probably have a different perspective than me on this
and that's okay too.
- No, I think I agree with you.
I think it takes both parties and
sort of the idea of entitlement
I think I struggled with in my career
and hiring people and the first question is,
I don't work weekends and I leave at five and
right then and there,
you don't belong in the event industry.
- Wrong industry.
- Right, exactly, wrong industry and I know in my career
and I've been doing it now 10 years,
I can't remember the last time you just go home everyday
at five or you're able to join this wonderful
softball team that are every Wednesday,
it's a lot of hard work and I'm sure that that
spans multiple industries but I think the event industry's
dynamic because there's no two days that are the same and
yeah, I think, in terms of working with Aaron,
he's definitely taken the mentorship role to me and
taught me some of the tricks of the trade and I've
been super receptive to it and I understand the work
that's involved to sort of reach those goals
that he's set for me.
I can't say that being the same for other employers
where it's more of a
sort of throw you into the mess
and you kind of figure it out and
sort of not learn necessarily what you've taught me.
- Could you imagine for a minute if a doctor
walked in on his first day and said,
I know I'm a resident
but I'm doing overnights
or if an articling student walked in and said,
you know what, I know you're a senior partner
but I'm not photocopying your shit.
This is nothing,
the things that we talk about in our industry
are such nonsense half the time because
people wanna make it about the events industry.
It's not.
It's about every industry, everywhere.
You work your ass off, you're dedicated to your job,
you do great things and the cream always rises.
That's any industry.
You could be a lawyer.
The best lawyers charge a lot more than
the shittiest lawyers.
That's just what happens.
Some people are better than others.
I have three small children at home,
oh, I am teaching them teamwork
and inclusion and all the important things
that I think our generation has had the luxury
of learning about,
I also am so careful to teach them to win
or to try to win.
If they don't win, that's okay
and learn how to lose.
- That's right.
- But you gotta work to win
and that that's something that our industry
just doesn't get, all of these things that we talk about
come back to that,
so I think what we need to understand is,
we are a business and an industry like any other one
and if you go look in advertising, marketing, PR,
doctors, lawyers, accountants, the cream always rises,
the hardest workers always win and if you wanna win,
you better put in your time and put in your effort to do it.
- We had a great comment that came in from Kathy
in the chat saying that she's a boomer with
25 plus producing events, keeping up with the trends,
stop calling us old people, we're wisdom warriors,
I enjoy working with multiple generations,
age is nothing but a number, holla.
- I'm down with Kathy (laughs).
- Loved it, loved it.
- A little bird told me to ask you about tenure.
- Tenure, what's that?
- Like when you--
- Yeah, I know what tenure is.
- (laughs) I was like, how does he not know
what tenure is?
- Listen,
tenure doesn't mean anything unless your
on top of your game.
You never are deserving
and if you talk about and I like to use analogies,
as you know, and so, if you look at sports, for example,
you can be on top one minute and in the minors
the next minute.
For events, for example,
same type of thing applies.
You gotta keep getting better.
You gotta keep raising the bar,
you gotta keep upping your game.
The tenure issue, I think, just goes back
to this entitlement problem and if we allow
the entitlement thing and the tenure thing
to take us over, I can tell you what's going to happen
and I said it, by the way, on last year's show,
that I thought if we don't get our shit together,
event companies are gonna get bought out
and a lot are gonna go out of business
and whatever else and if everyone's been watching
over the last year,
companies are being bought out,
there's mergers, there's acquisitions.
This is just the way it's going
so tenure will mean nothing anymore because
the best people will stay in their jobs
and if you're not willing to be the leader,
to push the envelope, to raise the bar,
it doesn't matter how long you've been doing this,
you're just holding somebody else back.
- I love that (laughs).
So, the thing that I think we wanted to talk about
definitely, we don't have a lot of time left
and I think they're probably hinting at around four
coming up soon but one thing that we definitely
wanna talk about was this kind of idea that
creating a cause for everything and it's funny,
I feel like there's always these corporate events
and I've had a corporate event recently that was like,
we're gonna raise all this money for our local charity,
this and this and that and I remember being on stage
and the client will remain unnamed and they go,
so how much money did we raise?
Someone said, no one donated.
They said, okay, we'll donate $1500.
The fact that it has to be a cause for everything
and do all that sort of stuff,
what's your thoughts on that?
I mean, obviously, Aaron, you're huge into philanthropy.
What are your thoughts on it?
- I'm gonna be very careful about how I position this
and I don't do it very often because I respect the fact
that people want to make change in our industry
and in the world, as do I.
I put a lot of time into the SEARCH Foundation.
I know that EPTA is another amazing organization
in our industry and that's people specifically
putting their time and their effort towards solving
a problem.
The problem that SEARCH Foundation solves is we
are able to give money to event people in crisis.
EPTA is able to rebuild homes using their own hands,
so it's a volunteer organization, unbelievable.
My challenge is that I read online in all the forums,
the event planners gather and all this other nonsense.
Today's cause is, Trump and immigration laws
and tomorrow's cause is human trafficking and
the next cause is kosher food and the next cause
is what do we do for vegans and
I think we just need to remember
that we are a creative industry
that can impact the lives of people on a daily basis.
That is our calling card.
That is what we can do.
I can effect the way that people feel about products,
services, their company, their job,
learning, whatever else, on a daily basis.
Can I have a voice for another cause?
Of course, but suggesting, for example,
and don't get me wrong,
all of these causes are worthy and all of these causes,
we're on the right side of these causes
when people are talking about them and I think
it's important to talk about them but
are we going to solve the problem as an industry
of human trafficking?
It's not unique to our industry.
So, do we wanna elect a voice out of our industry to
join a bigger council on this, sure
but is this the event industry's cause to solve?
No and it's the same thing with a lot of these
other major causes that need solving and need work
but why are we the martyrs to try and put it
on ourselves that we need to do something about this.
We need to do that.
We shouldn't bring clients to hotels that
haven't signed this specific thing or whatever else.
We are not a powerful enough industry to make that change.
Yes, we do hold a little bit of clout.
We do spend a lot of money
but I wanna be careful about the idea that,
as an industry, that we really stay in our lane too.
We join fights,
we join people.
We join organizations
but we don't have to be the change,
we just need to be part of the change.
- That's great.
- And I think there's a difference between
access to eduction on major issues and getting
that competency up when you work with clients to say,
yeah, we're ready to talk about x, y, z,
because we know that's a priority for you
rather than being the leader in the space and wanting to
make sure that you have all the bells and whistles up front.
I think there's a balance and you can show
awareness, a competency and create a design, Tanya,
on how you would make impact to educate others
in that session or that event
without positioning yourselves as, okay,
EPTA, we're gonna solve it all or whoever
we wanna put that on, whoever's shoulders
we wanna put it on.
- So, just, what I don't see out of our industry
and you know, I'm don't like to be the smartest person
in the room, I'd rather be the dumbest person in the room
and so, what I don't see is our industry going,
you know what, if you're going to be the expert on this,
let's make sure, let's put you on a pedestal
that you're gonna be the expert in our industry
when it comes to any one of these issues.
I love that, I know Alex is listening but I love
that Alex is becoming an expert on crises.
Crises communication and how to handle crises,
I know that's a big topic right now and I'm sure that
there are a lot of people trying to learn about it
but Alex has gone and done something about it and
I know he's working with MPI on amazing courses
and stuff like that.
For me, if he's going to be the guy to jump onto
that pedestal and he's going to be the guy to say,
I'm gonna first start working with MPI and then
I'm gonna take that platform and I'm gonna approach
somebody else and I'm gonna say,
from the event industry, here's the way that we see things,
how do we blend that with what all the industries
are seeing,
I think there's major value there.
Obviously, across the US, it's so unfortunate
that schools are not necessarily the least
scary place to be right now and so I think,
if we can lend our experiences to a conversation
including that, because we group gatherings,
we have a very similar circumstances,
albeit not necessarily with children,
so I think if we can lend our voice to a bigger conversation
and help legitimize our industry by saying,
we are paying attention to this and here's
what we are doing, can that help you,
that's great but I think as an industry,
do we need to solve the world's problems,
no, I just think we have to be part of the conversation.
- Yeah and we work with everyone,
so we need to be ready, to think about the perspective of
a certain industry, a nonprofit, an MLB team,
there's so many different angles to look at it,
so that's what it's really about.
- We are so world class leading in terms of
being inclusive and all of those types of things.
We can lend a major voice to that.
- Right.
- We congregate groups for a living, inclusive groups.
So we can be a leading voice there on how to
manage that situation and how to be comfortable
and how to change and I think other people
can lend their voice to our conversation.
I think they have to do that though.
We don't have to change the world alone
but we try to for some unknown reason.
- It's in the blood.
- Yeah.
- Well, I know we're short on time and we have questions
that we always like to ask at the end of our episodes,
one of which is, if you could pick one, one tip
for other event planners, organizers out there,
what would you say and we can stick it in the shit
category or go broad.
- Oh my gosh.
- I think you should have good hair like Tanya.
That's what you should do.
- This is where it's at.
- The coif.
- It's all in the haircut.
- And by the way, I have us on like a 70 inch monitor
in front of us, so like, she's fixing her hair.
- Oh, geez, you go first.
- I think, still, our biggest plot
or thing we need to pay attention to is our business.
I think we lack legitimacy.
I'm involved in forums online everyday
where people are talking about
why it's okay to be a $300 day planner
and oh, I got my bills to pay and so I'm gonna do this
and whatever else, all of that needs to go away.
There needs to be some regulation to our industry.
I will say the same thing until I'm blue in the face,
we need to start coming up with basic, basic things
that people need to teach the public.
We're so busy trying to solve the world's problems
but yet we can't teach the public on what to look for
in a professional event company.
Can you imagine, the public doesn't notice,
can I see your insurance policy?
That's insane to me.
We hang things in the air, we do all sorts of crazy shit
and yet, I know that 70% of the companies
probably out there walking around with either no insurance
or the most minimum insurance policy you can possibly get
and the public has no idea.
It's insane to me.
- Kind of like an Uber driver (chuckles).
- Sure, can you imagine though,
Uber not vetting and someone doesn't have a license?
Or do you go to your lawyer and you don't ask
to see some credentials or know that they're a real lawyer?
It's the same type of thing, so, for me,
that's really something that I want to leave everybody with.
We need to be better.
We must be better or we're not going to be around.
There are other organizations, companies,
marketing, advertising, PR, they know how to do this
better than we do, they just haven't realized yet
that it makes more sense to do it in-house
but they will.
- What do you think, Tanya?
- For me, I would say, with what I do and where I've
been in the industry, I think, for me,
if I was to advise anybody, it's that
on the end of not giving up.
I think sort of the projection aspect of our industry
is also big, you put massive hours of work into
competitive RFPs and things like that and sometimes
you win them and sometimes you don't and it can
get discouraging at points but I think for anybody
in the industry and putting in the work and all the hours
not to give up on it and hopefully they'll
turn out to be successful.
- I love it.
Alright, we only got a couple minutes left and
I know you guys are full of some resources.
So, this is your chance to share your favorite books,
blogs, apps, Scuba masks, what the hell that wall
is behind you, I've been wondering this entire time,
things like that.
- Someone's got to make the EventIcons drinking game
where every time Will mentions the scuba mask
there's a shot involved.
- I'm the only one left who was there to witness
so it's not fair.
- Listen, Grant, Shit Event Planners Say, Volume Four.
- That's true.
- The home edition.
- The drinking edition.
- So what are you guys' favorite resources and
that definitely I'm gonna ask what the wall is
behind you guys, maybe start off (audio cuts out).
- So, for me, I think there's,
I read not long ago "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck"
which seemed to be a good book for me.
I don't really know that I got all the concepts
and I still give a lot of fucks,
so I'm not sure that it worked.
Two people that I was really interested in their
books this year, one was Cindy Lowe,
who, if you don't know her,
she is the resident superhero of this industry
and if you wanna know all the shit that I've been
saying for the last hour about hard work and dedication
and being involved and stepping up, she's it.
She is somebody that mentors me
and I love her for it because she keeps me grounded and
she was nice enough to let me write a part
of the foreword in her book, so I loved that
and then the other book is Tahir Endi's book
and again, she's an amazing event planner,
very smart and it's more on the design level whereas
Cindy's is more on the business level,
those are two that I definitely love and I'm over 40
so I'm not quite sure what an app is but
if you want to explain it to me later, Will,
I'd love to learn.
- I'll teach you tomorrow.
(Tanya and Aaron laugh)
- I'll teach you this summer.
- For me, I guess I would say Instagram is huge.
I think it's super important to know
what your colleagues, other companies,
what's the hottest designing trend
but then not only that, sort of to take concepts
maybe from interior designing.
It could be sort of like a table lamp and how do
I make this wireless to put as a centerpiece or something
like that, so I take a ton of inspiration from
Instagram being sort of an image-based app that
I think has opened a lot of creative doors for me
in terms of finding stuff that outside of the box
and completely different and
actually the wall behind me was
an idea that was not exactly that but it turned
into that, we did this for an Andy Warhol-themed event
and it's a paint can wall that turned into
a step and repeat wall but
I got the idea off of a graffiti-ed
something or other on Instagram and it turned into that.
- So if you wanna look up,
I do know what a hashtag is, at least at my age,
it was the AGO, so the Art Gallery of Ontario's
Art Bash and you'll find that that was at the entrance
and it became very Instagram-able,
a lot of celebrities were there and very
high profile people in the public eye
and that piece made it into a number of newspapers
and publications and online and Biz Bash covered it as well,
which was wonderful of them.
- We had mannequin heads with floral hair
for centerpieces, it was a fun one (chuckles).
- That's awesome and that's the Art Gallery
of Ontario's hashtag, basically?
- I think it was AGO Art Bash.
- Art Bash.
- Yeah.
- Cool, perfect.
Alright, cool.
- Yeah, we'll make sure that gets into the resources.
Well guys, we're it, that's it.
That's always so fast and the next thing you know--
- Shut the fuck up, really?
- Oh, dude, yeah, it is, that's it,
so you're gonna have to save some powder for--
- Can I ask you one more thing?
I wanna finish by once again mentioning SEARCH Foundation
because, again, so important.
In spite of having fun and having a good time,
SEARCH is doing a great event in Denver next week
at ILEA live, that's gonna be Wednesday night.
We're doing an unbelievable event.
The tickets are on sale already at the special event show.
I'm gonna be there.
I'm gonna be doing three sessions there speaking
so people can come see me there but
buy your ticket, the event's called the Bougie Basement.
It's gonna be really fucking cool
and SEARCH's mission is really to help people in crises
and when I read around the world all the shit
that's going on and even fires in California
and what ever else now,
I know that there's an amazing board of unbelievable people,
both veterans and newer people to the industry,
who are doing everything we can to help and so,
searchfoundation.org, again, as you guys know,
I never ask for money but I ask for awareness,
so make sure you check it out and at least know it's there
because if you don't need it one day,
someone you know might and so,
we just wanna be there and be able to help where we can,
so that's my good news for the day.
And Will Curran's a fucking bear with that beard,
I just gotta say it.
(everyone laughs)
- Poor will.
- He's like Thunko Bear or something.
- Thunko Bear (laughs).
So Aaron, where can people find out more about you
and what you're up to and Fifth Element?
- Sure, they can go to www.fifthelementgroup.com.
You can follow Tanya on Instagram at tskags,
that's T-S-K-A-G-S.
You can find me at Aaron Kaufman, CSEP
or A. Kaufman CSEP, something like that,
I don't know, you guys will find it and post it
and Fifth Element group[s Instagram is
fifthelementgrp 'cause they wouldn't let us
write group for some reason.
- Nice, well, thanks again for joining us,
we really appreciate it and Audrey, yay,
I got to be a host with you again.
It's been a little while,
so I'm happy to see you and
where can people find out more about you
and what you're up to?
- Yeah, sure, I'm kind of boring.
I like to connect with people on Linkedin,
that's my jaunt.
So, hit me up there and learn about the work
that I do outside of #EventIcons.
- Yay
and Will, we've got some shit coming up.
You wanna tell us about it?
- We have a ton of cool shit coming up.
This is like the crazy week for EventIcons.
We're gonna be all over the country,
actually mainly, now that I think about it, the Southwest
but (chuckles), we are gonna be doing some live shows.
If you've ever watched us do those live at IMEX
which Aaron was a part of that.
- Been there, been there.
- It was super cool.
- I'm gonna say it was episode 33, something like that?
- Sure, I'll take it, 33,
either that or we're gonna point to a random episode that--
- Three beard, three beard.
- Three beard (laughs).
So, we did a live show at IMEX.
We're doing that again this year for a lot of
different events around the industry,
starting off with next week is ILEA Live,
like Aaron was talking about.
There's gonna be a ton of people in Denver
for ILEA Live.
On August 15th we're doing our normal 5 PM Eastern Time
and doing a show live from ILEA Live,
which, say that five times fast and see
what comes out, so definitely come check us out
if you're gonna be there, if you're not, tune in and
join the conversation and then right after the episode,
go check out SEARCH Foundation's party
at the Bougie Basement, which is gonna be really awesome
and then, just in case that wasn't enough for you
and you want more of the IconsLive,
the next week, literally, literally the next week,
we are going to be at Connect Marketplace at 5 PM Eastern
but not on Wednesday, on Thursday,
so the 23rd of August we will be doing this show.
I can't get over it with Brandt's face.
If you're listening to the audio podcast,
you miss out on the video show, I'm just saying
but the 23rd of August, Connect Marketplace,
we're doing a live show and all of us will be together
and maybe Audrey, maybe not Audrey,
that'll be the surprise.
So come see us, join the conversation live
and we'll let Brandt take us home.
- Absolutely and we do hope you can join us
at those live events,
the Live at IMEX was awesome,
it was like a two hour extravaganza and we fully expect
to try and do those kinds of things again,
both at IMEX hopefully and definitely at ILEA
and Connect Marketplace coming up,
so thank you everybody again for coming,
I'm Brandt Krueger, Event Technology Consulting
or brandtkrueger.com.
I'm all over the Twitters and the internets
just as me 'cause, you know, I'm just as me.
Then we wanna thank Hans and Katrina and Nicole,
Kathy, the Nick Barelli, Jamie, Evelyn,
Lisa Lisa and the Cult, everyone who joined us live,
so many people came in and out,
I couldn't keep track of all of them
but I was trying to write them down as they came,
thank all of you for showing up.
EventIcons is recorded live each Wednesday at 5 PM Eastern.
You can watch behind the scenes on Facebook Live,
then the show is released every following Tuesday
on iTunes Pocket Cast, Stitcher,
whatever your favorite Pocket Cast app is,
you can listen to it on your Google devices,
on your Alexa devices.
- And Spotify now.
- Everywhere and Spotify now, I forgot it,
we gotta add that to the closer so I can remember
to say that, we're everywhere you want to be (laughs)
but be sure, the best place is to sign up
is at event-icons.com.
That's where you can get the show notes
and links to the resources that are shared.
You can join us there every week and then you can
connect directly, just like, was it Kathy that sent
in her comments, holla, live to us on the Zoom chat,
that's the best way for you to join us,
you get all the extras as well.
We wanna know what you think, join us,
join in the conversation, Twitter,
use the #EventIcons, join the EventIcons Facebook group,
let us know what icons you want to be on the show
and hopefully you can join us for
Shit Event Planners Say Volume Four next year this time,
thank you all for joining us and we'll see you next time
on EventIcons.
(relaxed music)
- [Announcer] Thank you for joining us for another
amazing episode of #EventIcons.
To catch the transcription
and all of the resources mentioned,
head to www.helloendless.com/blog.
This week's episode will be posted and available
by next Tuesday.
Also, let us know what you thought
about this week's episode.
Share your biggest takeaway and join the social conversation
sponsored by Little Bird Told Media.
Just tag your post with #EventIcons.
We'd love to hear from you.
Thank you again for joining us,
we'll see you next Wednesday at 5 PM Eastern,
right here on #EventIcons.
(relaxed music)
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