Hey folks, it's swankivy, I'm doing another Letters to an Asexual.
I think this is Number 52.
Um, so, if I am wrong about that then I'm sorry.
But, uh, I don't feel like going back to check and see what number I'm on.
I think it's 52.
So I'm gonna talk today about something that might be sort of controversial or uncomfortable
for some people.
Straight up, it's about masturbation.
Um, and it is about, uh, some of the nuanced perspectives regarding, um, whether that should
be some kind of distinction in our community.
I don't think so.
That's a behavior, just like, um, whether you choose to have sexual intercourse or whether
you choose to have a relationship, you know, there are these, uh, behaviors that you can
do and still just use the term "asexual" if that's what applies to you, that is what you
identify as, it describes your orientation, your attraction experiences.
And I don't really think that there's any reason to have, like, this huge distinction
in whether you're libidoist or whatever you wanna call it.
Um, and what, what um, behaviors you participate in as an asexual person.
Um, and one of the things that I don't really get to--get around to saying in this conversation
I'm gonna read you, um, I think that I never quite got around to saying, like, you don't
have straight people dis--making a distinction as to whether they're a particular shade of
straight if they masturbate or they don't.
You don't have gay people making a determination of whether they're gay or a specific subsection
of gay depending on whether they masturbate.
So why would there be a special case for us.
Um, so ultimately, um, I think a lot of people get hung up on this idea that masturbation
is a "sexual behavior."
And you know, I don't wanna make too many people uncomfortable talking about this, but
many children masturbate, and it's even, like a behavior that has been observed in the womb.
Um, bottom line is most people if they find it pleasurable to touch a pleasure center
of their body, then, you know, they'll do it even if they don't have context for what
that means to adults.
And of course, any adult that masturbates probably has, you know, a different perspective
on it than a child does, but the bottom line is just because something involves your genitals
does not mean that it's a "sexual thing."
And it also doesn't necessarily mean that your attraction experiences can't be described
by the word "asexual."
Uh, people get really hung up on that for some reason.
They get this idea that, um, "asexual" has to mean asexual in every sense of the word,
like I've even had people say it's the wrong word for me to use, uh, for myself if um,
I have any sexual organs.
Which of course is kinda ridiculous.
So.
Um, I'm gonna read a conversation, and it's, it's a pretty uncomfortable one.
It's a really frustrating one.
Um, and I, you know, I ended up uncharacteristically not replying to someone even though I thought
they were wrong at the end of the day.
Um, because it was just, it was so aggressive and it was so, like, layered with, like, there
was something going on there where, um, this person, as you'll see, is accusing me of misrepresenting
myself or, uh, hurting the asexual community because of how I describe myself or the behavior
of the people in the asexual community.
Um, and uh, you know, it, it was really just, it was--it was an extremely uncomfortable,
um, conversation where I felt like they were attacking me or they were trying to shame
me, and uh, as you'll see also, that, they were accusing me of being ashamed.
Um, full disclosure, what they bring up in the conversation as you'll see is, um, that
I have talked about masturbation in other contexts where I don't identify as a person
who masturbates or has a libido.
I just don't really experience any of that as an adult, but you know, my parents had
said "yeah, you went through a phase where, you know, like you played with yourself when
you were a kid."
And it's like, lots of people do that.
Like I said.
you go through a phase where you pick your nose, maybe.
It's like, it's not like that defines who you are as an adult or that it precludes you
identifying as not being a nosepicker.
You know, you know what I mean?
It's, it's kind of ridiculous to say that if you ever did anything as a child that you
didn't understand the context for or you did it in an exploratory context, that that somehow,
uh, changes who you are or forever, um, adjusts what terms you can apply to yourself.
I mean, you might as well say, "well, if you were breast-fed, then you, your mouth touched
a boobie!
And you're forever a sexual person because you touched a boobie!"
You know what I mean?
It's like, it's absurd at this point to say that, um, anything that you did as a child,
that you may not even remember, um, must describe something about who you are as an adult or
as a maturing individual if you're, like, a teenager or something.
So, I'm gonna go ahead and read the conversation.
And you know, I'm not trying to name and shame but I do find it kinda funny that the person,
uh, chose the username "Simply Objective."
Because you know how the science bros often do that.
They're like, "oh, my conversation with you is not at all emotional, it's objective!
And it's true!"
So here's what they said to me.
Um, this person posted on one of my videos, and said: "According to polling there's no
significant difference in the rates of masturbation between sexuals and asexuals.
And according to science there's no notable correlation between asexuality and arousal
or orgasmic disorders.
This makes the statement 'SOME asexuals masturbate' very misleading.
Also, in an earlier video you admitted to masturbating, including in public--" (I don't
know!) "--as confirmed by your parents.
So denying doing so on TV during a discussion on asexual libido was very misleading, even
if you no longer do it."
Yeah, I have no idea what he's talking about.
Ah, well actually I don't know if it's a he.
But what they're talking about, regarding public masturba--I'm like, what exactly did
I say that was construed as that.
Um.
Yeah.
I don't recall that.
Anyway.
But, so I said this: "I'm not following how 'some asexual people masturbate' implies how
many do--it states that some do and some don't, just like non-asexual people.
'THAT'S VERY MISLEADING' is a really weird way to interpret that.
Also not following why you're reference-- referencing 'masturbating in public,' or why
you're implying I'm obscuring statements I've made in other videos with anything I've said
in this one.
Discussing openly that I went through a phase as a child that many children go to--go through
is not weird, and it does not in any way suggest that this requires me to 'admit to' it in
conversations that are about whether I have a libido or masturbate (which I don't).
Don't make comments accusing me of 'denying' and 'being misleading' when you're having
to rearrange and reframe things I've said to make them seem contradictory."
So they come back and say, "I've never heard anyone say 'Some people eat fruits and vegetables.'
People simply don't use the header 'Some people...' when referencing an act of--an activity the
large majority of people engage in.
They instead use words like 'majority' or 'most.'
Some people can see.
Some people can hear.
Try this for yourself with any example that applies to the large majority.
So yes, considering the context, your use of this phrasing was undeniably misleading.
Lastly, I never said you masturbate, but only that as a child you did, as confirmed by your
parents.
Childhood libido, regardless of what subsequently took place, is used by therapists to rule
out genetic arousal disorders.
They then focus on disease, medication or psychology.
So yes, in the context of a discussion about asexual libido, answering no to the question
was undeniably misleading.
People with congenital arousal disorder, by definition, don't go through a childhood phase
of self-exploration.
I don't want to call you out, and actually appreciated your attention to detail in this
video.
But it's clear your shame around masturbation is overshadowing your desire to accurately
represent asexuality."
So I said this.
"I don't see the purpose in specifying how many people masturbate.
Some is fine.
This isn't a scientific statement I'm making.
Don't talk about my statements like I'm lying to people because I wasn't specific about
what 'some' means.
No, masturbating as a child is not 'libido.'
No, it isn't 'misleading' to answer that you don't experience yourself to have a sex drive
if you ever touched your genitals when you were a kid.
You shouldn't conflate those things, and you especially shouldn't use your conflation of
those things to accuse someone of having 'shame.'
It would be kind of silly for me to voluntarily make materials where I 'admit' such things
if I'm trying to get all hush-hush cover-up about it.
There's no need to graft attitudes onto people whose beliefs and attitudes you don't know.
If you believe this is a callout, you're mistaken."
So they said this.
Quote, quoting me, "No, masturbating as a child is not 'libido.'"
And they said, "I'm a college educated biologist and ALL my references clearly define libido
as a sexual urge that includes sex and masturbation.
In regards to why the question is important.
If you tell people you don't drive they instinctively ask if you take the bus, ride a bike and so
on.
So when you hear 'I don't have sex with people' EVERYBODY instinctively thinks do you have
it with yourself.
It is without a doubt the most obvious and relevant question.
If there was no shame, like asking if you ride a bike or rub your elbow, then asexuals
would answer the question and the whole world would have a better understanding of asexuality
(i.e. same libido, just no desire to sleep with anyone).
Instead you're misleading people by using pointless phrasing ('some people,' so 0.1
— 99.9% do) when it has already been shown that the rates are comparable.
You then, despite being unusually intelligent, make embarrassingly stupid statements like
masturbating as a child is not libido.
So when I said masturbation shame, I wasn't just referring to yours, but to that of the
entire asexual community.
"Are you gay?"
This is a stupid question, yet you answer it in depth, and without artifice.
The only reason you didn't respond the same way to 'Do you masturbate?' is because of
shame."
I said this: "You've got an awful lot of investment in your belief about what words I choose mean,
and I think it's a little sketchy that you're this fixated on transforming masturbation
discussions in our community into widespread collective shame, but you do you, buddy."
So they said this: "I'm asexual, and no less a member of this community than you are.
I've never had or wanted sex.
I've never even had a sex dream or masturbated to people having sex in porn.
And unlike you, I didn't masturbate as a child.
I, also, too have a desire for a broader and more accurate representation of the asexual
community.
So when I saw you misrepresent the asexual community on TV because of the masturbation
shame that is plaguing our community, I was very disappointed.
The first question EVERYONE will think, and should think, when told about not having sex
with others is if you have sex with yourself.
And an honest answer to this question is crucial when communicating what asexuality is to others.
You know full well that the ONLY reason an honest and clear answer isn't given is because
of shame.
Your failure to concede something as obvious as this is itself proof of the shame.
All the best.
Bye."
So, that--I didn't feel like it was necessary to respond to someone who was putting words
in my mouth there.
But the thing is, there is nothing shameful about masturbation, that's why I say some
people do it, some people don't.
I haven't personally even studied whether there's much of a difference, I was under
the impression that there was no difference, just like this person said.
Um, I don't see what is indicative of shame if I'm using the word "some."
Um, and I also don't see, um, how someone construes me as being ashamed if I'm talking
about, you know, gladly talking about something that I, you know, that I went through a phase
of doing, like, a very normal thing that I'm specifying it's a very normal thing.
Um, and, you know, it just, it doesn't have the same context as an adult, I made that
very clear.
I've also talked to other people in the community that do, uh, talk about, like, in an asexual
context, they'll talk about their masturbation habits, um, you know, somebody that I know
who wrote a book about it, one of the self-published asexuality titles, said he thinks about furniture,
like, he kinda said it in a joking way, but he's like, "I don't really think about anything,
I just think about, 'oh, that feels good.'"
And that's why he does it.
He doesn't think about anything in a sexual context.
But it's also true that, you know, I've had some extensive conversations with people who
talk about fantasies and whatnot, and they say, like, if they have sex dreams or if they
have sexual fantasies they themselves often are not in them.
Or they're not actually thinking about something that they would like to happen to themselves.
Um, and then there's also the fact that, I mean, this gets really nuanced at this point,
but um, some people will say asexuality describes who you're attracted to or whether you experience
attraction.
It doesn't necessarily, um, encompass whether you would like to have experiences that involve
sexual release or sexual stimulation, and this kind of ties in also with some folks
who talk about kinky experiences, BDSM, um, and some of those folks, um, you know, will
experience, uh, sexual gratification from experiences they can go through that have
nothing to do with who they're attracted to, and some of them still may identify as asexual
if they're not getting any of their thrills from being attracted to someone.
So I mean, it might sound like, kinda nit-picking at that point, but it, these do get really
complicated sometimes when you only experience bits and parts of an overall experience that
is usually assumed to include everything, like, typically you're supposed to be sexually
and romantically attracted to the person who turns you on, and you're supposed to have
sex with them.
And all those things are not given when you're asexual or you may lack one of those elements.
Um, you know, you don't have to pick it apart if you don't want to.
If, you know, if you're . . . have less libido, or you don't really enjoy sex even though
you're romantically or sexually attracted to someone, you know, you can use the terminology
that we've been developing in our community to try to figure out how to most accurately
describe it, but you don't HAVE to.
Nobody has to sit there and be like "Well, I'm a non-libidoist asexual with a history
of going through a childhood phase where I masturbated," you know, like, it's--it's not
necessary to rattle off a long list of how you identify, but if you want to, those terms
are available to discuss it in more detail.
Um, I identify as asexual, and if you ask me about my libido, I'm non-libidoist, um,
you know, I certainly will admit that, you know, if there is a scientific context in
which people are using the term "libido" that is, you know, broader in the case of discussing,
you know, a sexual experiment or something, like this pers--I didn't, I didn't miss what
the person said.
They said that their, um, scientific literature, ALL OF IT, DEFINE ASEXUAL--or define sexual
experience include, or define libido, I guess they said, as encompassing sexual experiences
and masturbation.
And I'm like, I don't really care if that's how you're using it in the context of a scientific
experiment, because, you know, if you learn anything as a scientist, you understand that
terms are context-dependent.
And you know, the term "scientific theory" means a very different thing from "theory"
in a layman's context.
And I don't know about most of y'all, but you know, most of the asexual community is
not scientists.
We're not.
You know.
I'm not a scientist.
That's fine.
Um, I can still study and understand some of the scientific experiments and uh, investigations
that have gone on about my community, but that doesn't mean I'm a scientist.
And it also doesn't mean that I necessarily am using the terms in scientific contexts
when I talk about them in layman's terms, like I would on a television show.
So, you know, I mean, I'm not, when I say I don't have sex, I'm not saying that I don't
have sex organs.
But some scientists have certainly come onto my videos saying "You can't say that because
you have sex organs!
So by DEFINITION!
You're a sexual creature!"
And I'm like, "That's completely not what I was talking about though."
Like, if you wanna say that anything that has sexual organs is about sex, then you're
misconstruing the whole conversation that we're trying to have.
You're derailing.
And you're trying to have a conversation that isn't the conversation we were having.
Um, I think that it's, it does a lot more damage to us as a community to pull stuff
apart like that and claim that this is about shame, when, you know, I'm one of the most
shameless people that I can, that I can think of in the community where I will talk openly
about my life.
And you know, just because I will talk about my experiences as you know, being a non-libidoist
person who does not experience herself to have a sex drive, doesn't mean that I must
be hiding something, because, you know, there was this phase that I talk about that I went
through as a child, it's not like, oh, I'm ashamed of that, or that I'm ashamed to incorporate
that into my identity.
Why would I voluntarily make videos that nobody is paying me to make, um, you know, if I,
if I was ashamed to talk about that?
Why wouldn't I just pretend that I never had, that I never touched my genitals in my whole
life?
You know, it's like, you might as well say that if somebody has a lesion on their penis,
then it's a sexual, uh, disorder, or if you have cervical cancer then you have a SEXUAL
DISEASE, you know, it's like, it's pointless to associate anything that has something to
do with your genitals with sex.
And I think actually, if you wanna get into shame: if you are obsessed with associating
anything that has something to do with your genitals with a sexual context, and you can't
separate that in your mind as, you know, being sexual versus a part of the human anatomy,
you know, I, I think that betrays a lot more about, maybe shame, maybe ridiculous need
to, to contextualize anything about genitals with sex.
You know, I, I think that that says a lot more about a person who can't separate those
things than it does anything about shame, that you're trying desperately to assign to
me.
I mean, that was, that was really just, I felt really attacked by that.
Um, not by, um, you know, discussions of masturbation, but by this idea that I'm doing a, I'm doing
a disservice to my community because of some shame that I supposedly am experiencing.
And it's like, I'm, I'm really confused what makes somebody, um, that aggressive about,
about this.
Like, and, you'll notice there's this part where the person kinda went into detail about
like "Well I don't do that, I never did that, and unlike you, I never touched myself."
It's like, um, how is that relevant?
Are you saying that you get to be proud of that and I shouldn't be?
Um, or are you saying the opposite, which is kind of what it seemed like they were saying,
um, where they were saying that I shouldn't be ashamed of it but I clearly am.
And like, where do you get that?
Where do you get a shame reaction?
Um, it seemed like they were kind of, trying to connect the fact that I said "some people
do this, some people don't" with, like, a clear personal shame that I must be carrying,
but, like, that's reading an awful lot into something that doesn't mean what you're saying
it's, it means.
Um, so, you know, I don't have the specific data on how many do and how many don't.
I got the impression that, you know, a lot of people masturbate and a lot of people in
the asexual community are no exception to that.
Um, but I'm not gonna state numbers.
I'm not gonna imply numbers.
And I'm also not going to, uh, accept that I am misrepresenting people because I used
a vague term.
Like, as if I'm trying to minimize how many people do this.
The fact is I don't have specific data on that.
And it's not a failing on my part that I don't have specific data on that.
So that's kinda my, uh, my assessment of that.
But I will leave you with, ya know, a reiteration that masturbation is not something that asexual
people can't do.
Um, I've certainly heard in my comments multiple times from people insisting that "if you masturbate
you will, you are doing a sexual thing and therefore you're not asexual, so accept it!"
And I'm like, "I'm not even talking about myself at this point!"
But I, you know, I defend the inclusion of asexual people who masturbate, and you know,
I, I will absolutely insist that people who have sex and people who masturbate and people
who do neither of those things, all of us are equally asexual if that is how we experience
our orientation, our attraction experiences.
Behavior being separate from orientation is one of the very basic, um, like bedrock understandings
that a lot of our discussions revolve around.
And you can't separate those things if you're unwilling to acknowledge that behavior doesn't
define identity, then you know, I, I can't even begin to have the conversation with you.
So hopefully that sheds some light on this, and um, I'll see you guys next time.
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