Lindsey: Ash Hardell is in my office. Ash: Hey everyone!
Lindsey: You have a YouTube channel.
It's brilliant. I love it. You wrote a book. Can we show them your book?
Ash: Absolutely. Lindsey: It's beautiful.
And you're visiting me in Missoula, which is so
kind of you because then I can ask you to help me with something that I've
wanted to do for a long time.
I have been using the word "biosex" to preface
male, female, intersex, as well to explain what a person might have
going on reproductively for medical or clinical purposes. So for example, I would
say, "I'm a bio sex female. I identify as a cis woman or a female, cis female, but my
biosex might suggest that I have a vulva and a uterus, that I produce eggs,
and that I release more female hormones and maybe have XX chromosomes? And I also
don't know that there is anything grossly wrong with it? But when I go to
conferences or speak at campuses, some individuals will come up to me afterward
with some ideas about how to do this differently. And more and more I'm
getting messages that are like, "Hey, I don't feel comfortable sharing your
content because you say biosex," because there is a movement to this next level.
so it was: don't say male or female at all. Let's get to this next level of biosex.
Do biosex - that worked really well for awhile.
And now we're at next level communication. Ash: Mmm-hmm.
Lindsey: We're all here? Everybody's good? Ash: I'm here. I Iike it so far.
Lindsey: What I would like you to do is help me
move toward the highest level that we can get to right now with the language that we have.
Ash: We know right now that kind of the most popular "next step" would be
like the terms Assigned Female at Birth and Assigned Male at Birth. And for
anybody who's unfamiliar with what that means, it means exactly what it sounds
like: talking about what you were labeled when you were born. And usually what that
means simply is what genitals you have. That's really usually what it's based
off. The doctor looks at you and they see what they would label either...
Lindsey: Hamburger or turtle is what I've heard. Ash: Yeah.
Ash: And then they assign you a sex. Usually it's male or female.
Once in a while, they will actually assign
somebody intersex at birth, but a lot of times intersex individuals find out
they're intersex later in life. And the reason that AFAB and AMAB are
preferred is because it acknowledges how flawed and imprecise biomale and biofemale
is and how you aren't like inherently perfectly totally male or
female but in fact you were just assigned into this category.
Lindsey: When I had this discussion previously with someone, I explained that that's what biosex
male or female etc mean to me, that it means this is something assigned to you,
that we rarely know a person's chromosomes, that we don't know what's
going on with their hormones. We are basing it on their genitals and then
we're going from there, for that person to then have an identity and express
that identity in roles or performance or behavior later. But what you're saying is
like, "I really like to emphasize the assigned part--" Ash: Mm-hm.
Lindsey: And I also think that the bio part
of like saying that this is like "my life sex" for example is doing harm.
Ash: Well because I'm thinking about the way you described it in the beginning.
You're talking about what might it mean to be a bio female and you're like, "Maybe
that means my chromosomes are XX? I think if everybody was as aware as you that
there's all this biological diversity and what it means to be "male" and "female,"
then that would be a few steps in a better direction, but I just don't think
that's where we are right now at all. We can still use these categories with
Assigned Male at Birth and Assigned Female at Birth.
But we're just acknowledging that they're not great, they're not perfect, and maybe
we should figure a different way out. Lindsey: Something even higher than AFAB and AMAB?
Ash: Uh-huh. So maybe just not assigning sex at birth could be great.
Lindsey: So this child would be born and we would say, "I had a baby!"
Ash: Yes! And you'd be like, "Great! What's its name?"
Lindsey: So then they go off to school. I think the school is the first
place where we're really organized in a binary way. Like, "Girls over here.
Boys over here. Girls use this bathroom. Boys to use this bathroom."
Ash: But if we're existing in a world where we don't assign sex to begin with, I don't even
know what that would look like. Lindsey: It would look like the bathrooms
that we have in our homes. Ash: Yep!
Lindsey: And then what about medical care? Ash: Well, then you just
ask the relevant questions. So for example, like are you wondering if
somebody should be considering being screened for breast cancer? Then instead
of asking like, "Well are you a biofemale?" You would ask, "Do you have breasts?"
If you're trying to find all the right people to give like mammograms to, and you only did
it to "biofemales," you would miss a lot of trans women who grow breasts after
starting hormones. So a lot of times when we use biofemale or biomale in
reference to trans people, we're trying to understand their bodies rather than
their gender. But calling a trans woman a biomale is inaccurate, especially if
she's physically moved forward in her transition because she will have changed
her biology. She will have added estrogen. She may have grown certain body parts or
had certain surgeries. She isn't biologically male, so it's just
inaccurate. That's just another way that biomale and biofemale are inaccurate.
If she went in for any kind of treatment, just to say "biomale"
wouldn't be telling her whole story or what is going on in her body at all.
When talking about medical treatment, you just ask the relevant question and you'd ask
about the body parts that the treatment would pertain to.
Lindsey: So how do you think I should switch over?
Ash: I think that you should just replace... Lindsey: Done! This video.
Ash: I think you should just replace whenever you say biomale or biofemale with either what
you mean, like a person with a vagina if it's relevant to that body part, or
AFAB or AMAB or intersex.
Lindsey: The pros of doing this are that I am communicating
in a way that feels good to the people that really value the distinction in
language. I am being more accurate about what these terms are being used to
describe because when I say biosex male, we don't know exactly what that means,
and when I say Assigned Male at Birth, we know that that probably means that
somebody was marked based on their genitals. Ash: Correct.
Lindsey: And then we have it in
the meaning of the word that there's assumptions being made about the rest of
that person's body or their mind. Another pro would be that
I like learning and I'm forward moving so... Ash: Yeah! And you're not afraid to adapt and
make changes and adopt language that makes more people super comfy.
Lindsey: So are there any cons? Ash: Some people won't like change
because they don't like change. It's hard for me to think of any cons.
Lindsey: [laughs] Then there might not be!
Ash: Yeah! I think it's more precise. I think it's more inclusive.
Lindsey: I'm really glad that you're the one having this conversation with me because I think
that you are very smart and because you're curious, you're constantly
engaging with people who this matters to or people who this affects and saying,
"How can we do it better? What are the words that we should be using? What are the
harms that we're doing?" Thank you so much.
Ash: Yeah! I think it's cool that you're
making the switch to more precise, like inclusive language. That's a big deal!
It's hard to make a big change, and you're doing it. I think that's neat.
Lindsey: It's about intention and context often, but also impact, right? Like I want to make
sure that what I am saying is being received correctly.
Ash: Because you have so much good information on your channel,
you wouldn't want anyone to like
be turned away or not watch just because there was a couple like triggering
phrases or words. This way, you invite those people in as well.
Lindsey: Thank you so much! Ash: Thank you!
Both: Stay curious!
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