Are we on, yes? Sound check, yes Everybody, this one as well, yes...
Well, first I'd like to thank you all for attending these professional meetings.
In this 10th anniversary, Proyector wanted to continue what was started last year.
These are meetings, debate tables and of reflection,
we'd like all of us to contribute our ideas and explore where our sector is going.
This morning we'll start with a table for which
we've invited several institutional speakers
on one hand, we have Javier from the Community of Madrid,
on the other Begoña from the Ministry of Culture
and of course Ramón Mateos.
The table will be moderated by Video Artistas Asociados (Associated video artists)
exploring the issues around the support of video art.
Unfortunately Begoña won't be able to be here,
however we count on Javier and Ramón to tell us many things,
as well as Fran from Video Artistas Asociados.
This afternoon we'll continue at 4:30 with another round table
dealing with Formats and the distribution of video art.
And at 6:30, if I remember correctly, we will have a table discussing gender surrounding video art.
We would like you to accompany us and join us in those conversations as well.
Without any further delay I'm going to let Fran go ahead with his presentation.
I'd like to thank you again for joining us and also thank the Community of Madrid for welcoming us.
Good morning, welcome everybody, I am here this morning representing
and as president of the National Association of Video artists Associated.
It is from this capacity where I'd like to try to open the debate and this meeting.
We have, to my right, Javier Martin from the Community of Madrid, exhibition curator, arts manager
Javier Martin Jimenez, 1978, he is, starting September 2015, the art adviser for the Community of Madrid
among other tasks he's co-responsible of exhibition programming
for the Alcala 31, Canal de Isabel II or Sala de Arte Joven exhibition spaces, as well as the network Itiner.
And of the production programs and distribution of arts of the Community of Madrid.
Lines of support, subventions, and programs to support artists, curators,
programs of regional energization, programs of theoretical research,
He's in charge as well of the didactic, educational and of training programs
linked to independent exhibition spaces
and of the Vice Principality of Fine Arts.
Moreover, he holds a BA in Art History from the Universidad Autónoma de Madrid
and he founded in 2002 and directed until 2015 the association Hablar en Arte.
He was also the general coordinator of PhotoEspaña 2014
a festival in which he was first coordinator of activities in 2006 and 2005
previously he managed the editorial department for the magazine 12 Notas
as well as collaborating in specialized publications
such as Lápiz Sublime, and I think this is good for now...
With this I welcome you and thank you so much.
Thank you.
To his right we have Ramón Mateos, 1968, from Madrid.
His work in the field of contemporary art
has diversified throughout the years
from strictly creative endeavors
in collectives such as Pedro, Carrasco y Mateos,
individually as a visual artist he has shown his work
and projects in museums and national art centers
such as the Museo Nacional de Arte Reina Sofía,
MUSAC, CAAC, Artium, Centro de Artes de Santa Mónica,
IVAM, Centro Parraga, MEIAC, CCCB, among others.
Internationally he has shown in places such as Chiasma
Moderna Museet, Cobra Museum, Ex Teresa Arte Actual
Museo Carrillo Gil, PS1 MOMA,
as well as the Taipei, Moscow or Istanbul biennials, among others.
In 2014 he opened the independent space Nunca Nadie Nada No
from where he organizes and directs workshops presentations and exhibitions.
Since 2015 he's responsible for the workshop programing cycle Alguien ahí
in Tabacalera, Madrid.
In 2016 he became responsible for the production advisory in the Community of Madrid.
And that'll be all for now. Welcome and many thanks to both of you.
Well, from the National Association of Associated Video artists
we wanted to create a debate of sorts, a simple conversation
for this purpose, we have prepared is a brief questionnaire you may answer,
and also open to the public here with us.
So we've divided it in 4 or 5 questions, we'll try to cover as much as we can
whatever is left unanswered we'll leave for a future round table
We'll start with a question regarding the exhibition of video art...
the theme of the table is Structures for the support of video art
As we all know, there are official, private and independent structures
Favoring the existence and visibility of video art in Spain.
From this perspective, the question we'd like to ask from the association is
how do you see the situation of video art from the museum perspective and its financing?
That would be the first question.
Very well, do I answer first Ramón? Yes.
Firstly, many thanks for the invitation to the table
for the Community de Madrid, here welcoming these meetings,
is a pleasure to come back for a second consecutive year
and support, there has been 10 years,
it is of the utmost importance that a festival of these characteristics,
initiated by a nonprofit entity, lasts this long.
it is an absolute merit, and from the Community we consider more than important the support.
With respect to your comment about museums and institution
I'd like to comment on regard to what's related to the Community of Madrid
I think it's important to begin there and no from the area of direct support.
Every time we think of structures of support to the artist or video artist in this case
we think about subsidies and grants,
but I think we should go further and think about broader structures.
One, of course, is that part of programming
The general direction for cultural programming counts with 3 halls and 5 museums
The 3 halls are Alcalá 31, Canal de Isabel II, and Sala de Arte Joven,
and the museums are historical, with the exception of the Centro de Arte 2 de Mayo,
which, as you well know, is the museum par excellence for the Community of Madrid
where are hosted the collections of both the Community and those of the ARCO foundation
in addition to the museum Casa Lope de Vega, Cervantes,
Nuevo Batán and Picasso in Buitrago.
To start we should look at the context,
in recent years, as well as the programming of the upcoming years,
we can appreciate a weighty presence of video art, of course.
On one hand we have Alcalá 31, where we are,
you may remember Mariana Nuñez last year's exhibition,
this year we begin our season, and I'll take this moment to plug my publicity,
next Thursday we'll open with Cristina Lucas, at 8PM
we have 3 large installations where the power of video art is fundamental
and in the other spaces, I'm thinking of Sala de Arte Joven, in recent years,
through open calls, as you may know, its program works mainly through open calls...
If I remember correctly, Circuitos last year had as many as 4 video artists
that is to say, from 10 artists selected through Circuitos
4 were video artists or working with video.
And the year before too, there were 2 video artists.
This is to say that it is noticeable that video art is more than present.
There is a space that I did not mention, Sala Del Águila,
it is a space that doesn't depend only on fine arts,
the programming that we are doing there is particular,
in which it is a space we share with Archives and Libraries.
There, starting last year, we organized, in collaboration with Proyector,
several video art exhibitions, and in fact, and this is my second publicity plug,
tomorrow, Saturday at 7:30 we inaugurate Proyector's exhibition
with the presence of artists like Ramón Mateos.
Thanks to Proyector for organizing this event
and also thanks to the Community of Madrid for hosting us,
I will pick up on the question presented here before,
I will speak from the field of creation directly,
as an visual artist, apart from my labor as arts manager,
in this case I feel it will be more interesting.
I believe that through out recent times, in the last 20 years
which has been more or less the journey of my artistic career.
We've traversed through different moments when confronted with video art creation,
in museums and exhibitions specifically.
We've moved from a moment where there was an absolute ignorance
and even contempt for the moving image within the exhibitions,
I do not know if so much for ignorance, but more because of the cost, at that time
to have an infrastructure to host an installation or something of that nature.
But it is also true that to get rolling any project of this nature was a monstrous effort,
because it meant that the artist had to carry
with the weight of starting any initiative of this kind.
We've also seen a time in which exhibitions as well as museums were provided
with important funds to help with the visibility and publicizing of the work of the artist,
not the creative part, but that of dissemination,
then we encountered that any museum had projectors, and great equipment, etc.
Although, in truth, we've never faced a perfect or idyllic prospect
where we can say "I'll get there and everything we'll be ready..."
we've always worked behind the draft of necessity.
That is to say, there has never been enough equipment,
nor there has ever been enough means to develop anything, really,
anything in this field, I mean.
Well, we've now regressed again and we find ourselves as in the beginning,
and there aren't enough means or equipment to do anything...
The crisis has devastated everything and resources are almost nonexistent.
From the other side, meaning grants and support for projects,
outside of the institution for artists, the process has been similar.
We've started from nothing, not in the sense of building infrastructures,
but building the means, as in the first grants for young creators,
and all the other government aid for the funding of projects,
to the return to this desert we find ourselves in presently, once again.
Even in spite of the latest initiatives. I mean up until now.
This two situations have never run in parallel, creativity and its financing and distribution,
and how the work of the artists has been able to be shown.
As artists, we've found ourselves in situations, as the artists here know,
where we have to take, in many cases, our own equipment to the exhibitions.
Is almost as if you work as a secretary and you have to bring your own typewriter to the office...
It's a very strange situation, but it's true, it has happened to us many times.
Even infrastructures are not prepared for a field in which technologies are very important,
even though today we don't need the most advanced technology,
or the most complex, because it has been integrated in our day to day,
we still find ourselves with difficulties to maintain open an exhibition of these characteristics.
This, of course, is due to the fact that certain requirements are needed,
and infrastructures are never thought for this use.
the museum, not museum more like exhibition infrastructures,
A wide number of resources are needed, a lot of personnel
a lot of attention, technical knowledge of the media, which are hard to come by,
and this makes everything much more complex.
There is another issue I wanted to share with you,
from within the point of view of the independent creative field,
the development of video creation has been notable
despite lacking stable and continued funding
there has been a great effort to develop it,
There are many independent spaces, not only in Madrid,
but in the rest of the territory, and internationally of course,
who had been giving support to this more complex creation,
from small laboratories and independent spaces, there has always been creation,
since it appeared as such and is consolidating.
It has been appearing continuously in these spaces.
This brings me...Please forgive me to the next question, it addresses funding
the association raised this question, what public resources are being dedicated
to create a continuity of programming and presence of video art?
That is to say, independently that events can happen occasionally,
and that in fact they've been happening, as you mentioned,
one of the concerns from the association is the continued presence,
or spaces that have a continuous programming,
that also favors and helps to create new audiences.
This question is for you and then maybe, you can give an answer from the other perspective.
Yes, as I mentioned before, I think it's necessary to work together,
on the one hand, in fact, the launching of grants for creation
and production is being implemented now, as well as the need to show video art as we are commenting.
Certainly in the spaces of the city of Madrid there is a claim,
even from the public, it's also true that the spaces currently,
are being dedicated to a type of art that is linked to these forms of creation.
Therefore, we do an exhibition program that usually includes this type of techniques.
Always also, it has to be said, linked to others.
Today it's difficult to speak only of video art or speak only of painting, I mean,
but of new techniques, let's say.
And then there is also an important thing that must be mentioned,
the non-economic support also, to maintain and generate new audiences on the one hand,
for artists the non-economic support I'm referring to,
we can highlight for example, the work we are doing through Program A,
which is a free service that was launched through the Sala de Arte Joven,
to which Ramón is also linked to,
it's a is a free consultancy for artists and curators
working on two fronts, on two fronts, on the one hand
a fiscal, legal, and accounting advice
and on the other a resource and production consultancy.
That is to say, we've realized that an artist when finishes his studies,
graduates from university, art schools or wherever he is,
of course needs financial support through grants and subsidies,
but they also in need of a lot of advice.
In many cases they feel very lost.
Well, we've been doing the program for a year and a half, two years,
it's a program that is necessary, it's covering and filling a gap and a need,
not only an economic need, but also brings support, and advice
as I mentioned legal, fiscal, and accounting,
as well as resources and production in many cases,
Ramón can now tell us about the questions that come in,
They are like "Hey, I want to do this, how do I do it?
where do I do it? where can I get support?
Especially talking about certain pieces, talking about video art,
It's very complicated and I am very aware,
that there is tremendous labor and needs behind the work.
Regarding what you've said, about generating new audiences or what is inside,
this is fundamental through another series of resources,
linked to educational programs, some of them more experimental,
ranging from working with young people in Centro de Arte 2 de Mayo
that since 2011 is hosting the UHF workshops
where we had artists like Alex Reynolds, Fermín Jimenez Landa
and a whole bunch of artists that usually work with video.
As I say, it is a work that since 2011 is being done with young people,
also in El Águila we have Madrid 45, where Cristina Lucas had the last workshop,
with other people that are also connected to the video art piece
that it's gonna be seeing starting next Thursday in this same space,
or for example Rogelio López Cuenca linked to video, documentation and others.
Let's say that also this series of contributions
is also helping and generating the network so fundamental for us,
next October we have a Carlos Mori workshop
about writing for video art pieces.
I mean, it's an attempt for artists themselves
to learn how to write about their own pieces,
with an analytical and descriptive writing.
Starting at the end, almost...
On the first point you raised, about the creation of new audiences and their consolidation.
In truth, I do not manage public funds directly,
my labor in that area is very meager...
In terms of the independent and private sphere, for example,
we launched in 2007 a video creation platform,
with the idea of spreading, promoting and supporting video creation.
the tool we had to be able to do it was only online,
We did not have a physical medium to do it, at that time,
we built a platform where we selected every 3 or 4 months
a series of pieces that we presented to the public.
The objective of that platform was, precisely,
to promote the moving image, ahead of words, in a way...
And what we manage to do was to search for tools to raise the profile
beyond the online platforms and to take the to exhibitions,
for example, we took it to the Sau Paulo Biennial in 2009, I think...
What was the name of the platform?
Julio, Julio.
after that, this is how we've been able to move in the independent art scope,
I say this because one of the great supports that video artist have,
in this case, because is the theme of our conversation, but all artists in general,
it's the actual network and the complicities built within the network,
as in the case of independent spaces the support that can be shared,
or the artists themselves, supporting each other.
When I started doing video art pieces, they became more complex,
and the need for resources increased, evidently, there were no economical resources,
what we ended up doing was to appeal to someone more knowledgeable
and with a greater capacity than us, to facilitate us to make more complex pieces.
I'm not going to say in which one, but we managed to get people,
the creatives of a big post-production company involved,
to use their machines down time to produce our pieces.
Once they were made, we convinced them
that they were interesting enough so that we did not have to sneak in...
They agreed to let use their equipment. This is the reality,
all this speaks about the precariousness we move around.
We're always running after things.
It's true what Javier's been telling us, it's been a year since we started Programa A,
a project where we put forward, besides the idea of legal counseling,
it's to give a theoretical-practical support, on how to develop, from practice
the work of the artists, specially the young ones that don't have this knowledge.
Basically what we do is to put them in direct contact with the medium
and offer the the resources that exist in the medium,
and facilitate this encounters.
From there, provide the knowledge that at that moment
we can procure them for very specific questions.
The other side of consolidating, having created this new audiences,
were provided some support, to the best of our ability as creators,
what you mentioned about the consolidation of these new audiences,
it's true that for this to happen, it's necessary a continuity of the financial resources as well,
We've gone from, as we said, not having any support
to start having them, then disappearing and now there are new grant programs,
because the community of Madrid and City hall has presented them.
However, I think is the work of the whole network
to look for mechanisms of consolidation for this aid,
so they don't end up in intermittent mechanisms of subsidy
that come out every other year with more or less amounts,
but we should give us, as the creative fabric,
of small structures, that can be sustained through out time.
So they consolidate and shape up, so they don't disappear.
Yes. This takes me in the direction of what we said about heritage,
in respect to cultural heritage created by video artists.
This year specifically, we've had, without going any further, several casualties,
Several emblematic video artists have passed away,
among them Enrique Miñano, Pedro Costa, Ion Arretxe, among others,
this is a preoccupation we have at the association,
because the cultural heritage that's been generated in video art
could be left in the hands of a family
that may not be capable of taking care of it.
It's not the same a pictorial piece that occupies a space
and people are use to think that it has an intrinsic value,
whereas a hard drive or CD it doesn't happen...
In this case the question is what happens to the patrimony generated,
to its preservation and what protocol our institutions have for these cases?
If there is one, of course...
Well, I have to regret that nobody from the ministry
or city hall is here to accompany me,
The line we follow at this moment at the community (of Madrid) is work acquisition,
it is the way we can ensure patrimony, in video art or other media.
in fact it is being bought. Last year, as a matter of fact,
One of the videos by Cabello/Carceller was bought
that participated in the Venice Biennial.
Therefore, the collection of the Centro de Arte 2 de mayo itself,
the collection of the Community of Madrid has a lot of video art.
Video art of different types and different artists, and from varied generations.
This is the line the institution I represent follows and I can tell at this moment.
Well, in the area of video creation these are the two most complicated legs:
The conservation of this patrimony and how it is standardize, how it is archived
how it is kept safely, what it's done with it, how it's valued,
and how it's turned into patrimony, this is the great hotchpotch to resolve.
What we do know is that most institutions keeping video art
do it in a very precarious manner.
Precarious because it's a medium that demands a continuous renewal of the media itself.
for its storage, the majority of the DVDs started to circulate
at the end of the 90s or the start of 2000s,
probably the ones preserved in the museums, if they only have that,
it's possible that none of them is working right now.
Even though, they've became part of everybody's patrimony
they've become obsolete and they've been lost.
The ZKM in Zurich, for example, what it does with the files as they are bought,
they acquire the equipment to reproduce it as well,
to be able to maintain it up to date continuously.
Here, to my knowledge, it does not exist,
The direction of the Reina Sofía has serious problems in their audiovisual department,
They are preserving what was proposed to them that had to be digitized,
in certain formats, without compression kept in a certain way, and so on,
but because there is no defined protocol guaranteeing that this will work,
In fact, it's not done. So we have everything, movies, dvds...
I know they are working on the protocol and they've started to digitize everything.
Of course, otherwise, sooner or later could disappear...
This is a very complicated issue, that still has a lot of work to do,
but without establishing these protocols,
understanding these works as part of our heritage it'll be increasingly difficult.
I mean, the rest of the pieces has a physicality
that has a tendency to maintains itself
and we have the technical know how to conserve them.
And here we arrive to a nebulous area almost.
Given that physicality, I mentioned.
There is a side in this, which I think is important,
and it has to do with the financial side as well,
it is collecting directly, it would've been interesting
to hear from a private collector at this table to speak about this.
Is the other side of encouraging resources.
It is true that here in Spain, the collectors specialized in video creation,
they are numbered, and aren't very many.
There are more internationally, but still, it's a complicated theme,
and in a way,plays also an important part on the support of video creation.
I agree, I don't have much information, but for example, I know there is a project,
In fact, launched by and artist, Enrique Radigales,
with the help of a by a computer scientist and an engineer,
developing independently, precisely a protocol to archive both video art and digital files.
It's great the it is Enrique Radigales who's doing it,
he's spent years doing works in which he erased digital files.
- Himself, yes. Precisely, his work was that, exactly. -That could be dangerous...
He knows it well then. As long he doesn't converts it in one of his pieces...
But for him to develop this work is important.
OK, this takes me to the next section, is education,
which I know worries us profoundly,
because we believe that education is the basis in the creation of new audiences,
as are the interests in formation and conservation awareness
as well as the awareness of a professional application.
Regarding video art and the educational system, what plan of inclusion is there?
Not only unusual training or a minor master or crash course,
I know the Ministry is not present, but I leave it there...
Our question was, what type of plan of inclusion exists, if there is one,
and what subjects or knowledge has been established
so that the little ones get to know video art or new media arts?
Well, there is a shared point, in the community there is in the spaces and museums,
there is an important educational program linked to everything we do.
As a matter of fact, we always say that the work once the exhibition opens,
there is a second task, we have two phases to all exhibitions,
one up to opening time and one until the point of closing,
in that second phase our highest concern is to make it known to all kinds of audiences
and to very different scopes, of course our ultimate goal,
what we pursue ultimately is to achieve independent, critical audiences,
able to enjoy, but to understand as well and to visit the spaces knowingly.
I don't care if they are 5 years old or 95.
That's on one hand, as I mentioned, this is not associated specifically to video art,
but in general with contemporary art, today's art.
On the other hand, there are different pilot programs,
especially the Centro de Arte 2 de mayo is carrying it out,
for example, they been working for the past 4 years with schools around the area
mainly a program called "Here is an artist at work"
that is working directly in schools, we've had María Jerez, or El Banquete,
where I say it again, the moving image is very important.
In addition there is also some teacher training, as long as we don't get into,
and these are some of the difficulties of the institution, our competencies,
we don't manage education, so we can't get into education,
we do this work around our position, I mean, from the area of the arts,
we can launch certain lines of education or investigation programs,
as in the Sala de Arte Joven, starting last year, it's been now 2 years,
we launched a laboratory of investigation, run by Selina Blasco and Lila Unzua,
about non-regulated education,
I mean, everything one can learn beyond the university or schools.
And here in Alcalá 31there is another investigation program,
linked to museography.
Every 2 years we'll change, they are programs of investigation open to,
it's an open call, anybody can sign up, there is a selection process,
and between 15 to 20 people access these groups of investigation,
that try to develop as well what we've been talking about, at an educational level.
We also work, as I said, in a controlled manner, this is an educational area,
with some centers for teaching training, as the Reina Sofia can be,
The Reina Sofia has, as we do, a program on contemporary art as educational tool.
It's a series of workshops or program to train a teacher,
and we do it from our spaces and with the resources we have here.
The area of training, I believe is fundamental,
not only for the consolidation of audiences, but for the artists themselves, right?
On the one hand, the programs at museums and art centers
have seen a very noticeable development in the last 10 years
and there are fantastic programs, in various museums.
However, beyond that, and excluding university education
where we do see very noticeable fluctuations and ups and downs,
not to mention and resounding lapses and silences.
From the area of purely independent art or creation,
some of us, as in the space I run Nunca Nadie Nada No,
we understood very early the necessity find spaces
for the training of the artists themselves was fundamental.
We launched a program called Is somebody there?
with the collaboration of the ministry of culture,
starting from the idea of returning to the artists
the responsibility of training the next batch of artists,
in a way is like, from our own experience,
we have the ability to contribute this knowledge
and the acquired experience to our peers, so we've built a training program,
workshops, that's been running for almost 2 years now,
we're preparing next years program.
It's not a program dedicated exclusively to video creation,
but to contemporary creation in general.
As an example of our programming, we're starting with some workshops
and we just programmed the one lead by Carlos Temori
on writing and video creation.
I do believe that, generally, the area of education,
though there is a lot of general interest, from institutions an society in general,
is still a field needing more support and more work.
I believe that it is important not to forget the training of the artists themselves.
Not just looking out, though fundamental
for the creation and consolidation of new audiences,
but we shouldn't forget the creation of new artists.
To give that support.
OK, the last question and we open the floor to the public,
if you like to participate and ask a question.
Our question has to do with the subject of good practices,
we are aware that round tables are being developed
within the scope of the artist's statute, in this case as the association,
are not included in these roundtables, we weren't called upon,
not us, or the institutions we know around us,
it's true too that there are something like territories
we move in and sometimes we're in different spaces and segregated,
this is something video artists must fix,
What real perspective do we propose from the association
regarding the desired purse of the artist within the statute?
Is that an issue on the table?
Well, I will start explaining how does the Community works,
here, the regional government has a culture advisory,
which Madrid City Hall does not have and hasn't worked in this manner.
The culture advisory is Th closest reference to the creative context
an the closest relationship with the institution.
It is true, and I'll admit it, in recent years, it's not been a close relationship.
Our obligation was to meet twice a year, if I remember correctly,
I mean, having only two annual meetings. Therefore, the proximity so necessary
for cultural policies to develop was not happening.
It is true that the cultural advisory we can see at the VOCAM,
where we can see who belongs to the advisory,
and there can be movements there, I'll elaborate about this shortly,
additionally we have the sectoral working round tables.
These are the most agile tables we've launched, a year now.
For example, I meet every month, with my corresponding sectoral table, which is art.
As you know, there are 5 advisors in the Community of Madrid,
1 per sector, music, dance, film and art, I am the art adviser,
and as I mentioned, I have a monthly meeting to talk about concrete issues,
we try that this meetings DEA with a practical matter,
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe in February we talked about the art trade,
in March we talked about subsidies, we try to be very concise,
and practical to achieve an accurate feedback,
and for example there are institutions and non-profit associations,
not just non-profit entities, but must be of regional scope,
In this case your association could not be a part of...
or the IAC, which has a national scope and is not part of the cultural advisory either,
in the sectoral art area, we have AVAM for example,
which as a matter of fact was out in recent years,
because they were not present in the latest meetings,
and according to law they were out, but it was asked to call them back,
with the change of administration and the reactivation of the association,
there is also MAV (Women in visual arts), DIMAD, U. Complutense, Círculo de Bellas Artes
Estampa representing fairs and in good part commerce,
everything I mentioned is published in the BOCM (Official Journal of the Community of Madrid),
it's within those tables where we analyze each report.
For example the issue with subsidies, the subsidies we're offering right now,
which of course will be improved in the near future,
we've discussed them in these round tables.
Or other issues we've discussed here,
these are common issues, not exclusive to video art,
we talk about them in the round tables, there is an on going dialogue,
and we try to get them started, but the conversations move slowly,
we don't see results as quickly as we'd like, as fast,
In fact, one of the issues we tried to implement,
I've been working 2 years in the Community,
last year we managed to present a subsidy for non-profit entities,
and this year a grant for artists, so lets try to grow,
as Ramón was saying, in recent years there's been some swings,
very emphatic, because of the crisis, that affected in a very strange manner certain subsidies,
because the budget for other things hasn't been lowered,
It's not that there is more money suddenly,
it's just that now we're trying to distribute it differently.
Of course, at the end, how we distribute resources it's a matter of political action.
On the sectoral round tables, I haven't in truth,
that is, the sectoral tables for culture, there are one at the regional level,
another at the state level, and I believe that Madrid City Hall is implementing one.
One of the issues, I believe, we should be talking about,
is the representation an legitimacy of the people sitting at this tables,
because we it isn't clear who is and who is not sitting at these tables,
we're leaving lots of holes there that make us lose voice as a whole.
Everyone takes care of their parcel
and what's left between the parcels is left unattended.
As an example your representation or someone occupying your place.
It's a very important omission.
So we should try to make an effort to open it as much as we can,
to try and cover all possibilities.
Please forgive me Ramón, there is an issue I forgot to mention,
the members of the tables can invite external persons,
for example AVAM joined again because the rest of the organizations
considered that they should be part of the table again and were invited.
The same happened with MAV.
Well, there is very little I can contribute to this issue.
What we're missing, a little raisin... Well, now the last of our questions,
and deals with respect to the emergence, within the video artists collective,
and this is not a question just for the table, but to the audience at large,
for the voices, for this question as much as any other worry,
take advantage they are sitting here, given the unusual treat.
Any questions?
Mario, to break the ice at least...
Well, I'll take this opportunity to add something,
so Mario can answer...
No, something linked to the Ministry of Culture, I think is important,
these are structures, in the beginning the Ministry of Culture was created,
if I remember correctly, it was also created as a review body,
is a consulting body, not binding authority, in the Community of Madrid,
Among the issues and duties is the control of the results of the open calls.
Which is a good thing and a bad thing...
I for example the open calls for fine arts, we have an independent jury,
but we participate as well as the Community of Madrid we invite external people,
so the results of those juries have to be approved
by the art's committee of the Ministry of Culture.
So this could be good or bad, in this case is a regulating body,
to control everything is done correctly, except is not practical,
so I think that the advisory bodies in culture, given the time we live in,
have to reassess the situation, of course what I thing is imperative,
listening to the sector is fundamental, but also revising the operations.
In my case, to have a resolution or open call overdue
because the culture advisory has to meet to approve it,
is one of the issues we face in the organization, moving too slowly,
these are obstacles we put on ourselves.
This has nothing to do with what you have said...
But I thought about it for a thing I said before about the Sala de Arte Joven
I really like to see how young artists like to work with video.
We've seen it in the open calls for "Se busca comisario"
directed to curators, but linked to video art,
and in "Circuitos", like I said in recent years, and this is why I thought about it,
these are independent juries that change every year,
their selection has always included artists,
or video artists or people working with video.
Last year was the clearest where we had 4 artists,
and the one before we had 3, and the same happens with the grants to study abroad,
the community right now does not offer a program purely on residencies in the city,
but it offers a program for residencies abroad.
So in recent years artists have been selected to study abroad.
I remember Javier Cabrero Velázquez that went to Mexico,
Maya Watanabe that went to Japan, Alicia Hierro Grueso wen to Paris,
so what's present, the pulse of video artists is very present.
I think that on this afternoon's round table we'll talk more about it,
but it's obvious that the democratization of resources
and the access to the means of production, in this case of video creation,
has caused it to expand enormously.
Narration with the moving image is something we've grown up with,
and new generation I won't even tell you,
so the field of artistic creation will see a great explosion.
We all carry video cameras in our pockets,
this wasn't happening 15 years ago.
So it's logical that we see more cameras and see the flourish.
In that sense, I've always questioned myself about
if grants should be specific to a field,
I mean, I'm not sure if there should be a painting grant,
or to do sculpture, or make other type of things,
in that sense I find it strange to have specific grants for video creation,
even though it's true that it'd a medium that has very specific needs,
so it's true that there is a better defined and directed support it will help,
clearly.
Does anybody have a question? This is the time...
Hi, can you hear me? I'd like to make a statement,
before, when you were discussing the spaces for dissemination,
about how to make video art more accessible to the public,
I ask myself if is not being investigated that the true nature of video
is where we find the key to access the coming together of the public to video,
I mean, the ubiquitous nature of a digital image
that allows it to be in many places at the same time,
isn't this the key to approach new audiences? That is to say,
the fact that a video art piece is shown in a specific exhibition space,
what hinders reaching more people every time?
when everybody has mobile devices.
Isn't the space/museum is what is preventing video art to approach new audiences?
That was the statement I wanted to make.
I'll start, then you may answer. I believe is very important what you're saying,
but it is also of an enormous complexity, because the video artists themselves
have different points of view with respect to their work.
We're speaking specifically of a group of people that are living precariously
regarding the production, distribution, exhibition and a thousand other things
with the exception of a small group with access to the great spaces, museums, etc.
So if there isn't an option for the return, which precludes the work in a network,
there is a lot of work online, but this fact gives it a certain fragility,
to the support itself, I mean, you're everywhere and nowhere at the same time,
and this doesn't bring you a direct consequence,
but, easy, indirectly many video artists release their work
because this facilitates or favors, get them known,
gets the invitations internationally, this happens constantly...
Well, this is what we said earlier, this is one of the many omissions,
and one of the big problems in video creation,
which is the patrimonalization of the creations,
but under no circumstances I believe that the museum is a barrier,
it doesn't make a lot of sense, who wants to get closer,
be it the museum or the exhibition space, creates a context in which the work is read.
It is true that new media is allowing us this mega dissemination,
even the broadcast of a piece in different places simultaneously,
this is not only not a problem, but a great advantage,
but when searching for specific resources to create
there are those who may think it twice at the time of doing it.
As I mentioned before, I started some years ago, together with Manuela Moscoso,
a video creation platform, the majority of artists
did not complain when we published their video work online,
but not all the pieces we asked for were given to us to publish online,
That's what I meant about the "impediment",
I mean, the exclusivity that the gallery and museum space require,
when the exhibit a piece that not necessarily has a character...
- Of course... - in regards to a form...
It is not a demand from the space, it is a demand of the artist.
Clearly, but to present a dynamic...
...to disseminate, or to see it in more places and so on,
there are some galleries that in regards to the work of some artists may not want to do that.
while they're commercializing it.
We enter a very complex sphere.
I think there are ways and ways to approach this,
as many ways as artists.
You'll find a different answer from each one of them...
I think we can work in different formats, at the same time,
that allows you to move in one area or the other...
This is my personal opinion, there are other artists that don't think so...
That a way to endow the work with a specific economic value,
has to do with not having a large quantity available,
or the open broadcast of their contents.
That's the problem.
I wanted to bring into the debate, I speak as an artist and as a director as well,
for both of you, regarding Proyector, there is a bit of a quandary,
the problem of trying to exhibit the work online,
we're working on a platform right now, so the pieces are online,
it's correct, valid, reaches everybody, but the problem is the formats,
as an artist and as the director of Proyector
I think that each piece needs an specific format,
I mean, I create pieces for 10" screens, I want a piece to be projected to 15m,
so taking it to mobile device doesn't interests me
I have all my pieces published online, but it isn't the piece, it may be a summary,
could be a teaser, a way to understand, but it isn't the piece.
I believe that every piece must be shown on TV, on an old TV, as a triptych,
so we should respect what you want to do as an artist first,
then ask, demand to who's showing it, to show it the way is meant to be shown.
In that sense, Proyector humbly tries to respect the artist's formats,
and ask them, in a way we try to give them space,
there are many festivals in Spain, so we try that our videos aren't single channel videos,
we try not to have one video after the other,
Is this correct? Do we do this as well?
Or on Saturday and Sunday when we will have international curators...
In which there will be some videos following each other,
but what we need is that each piece has its own space.
What we talked about a correct, necessary platform
YouTube, Vimeo, anything that exists is valid, is good,
It is a situation in which we also have to demand ourselves
how we want the piece to be shown.
So this is the double debate we have, what do we do?
Do we show it so that everybody can see it? Or do we show it as it should be?
This is what I put forward.
I don't think I need a mic, I have a pretty good voice,
- We're recording... - Ah! OK...
Being in the school choir, that's what we have...
I'll present myself, I'm Lidón Sanchez I'm an exhibition curator,
and I'll be part of the curating team in the 4th edition
of the international art fair MARTE, that we do in Castellón.
Ourselves as a fair we have a specific space for performance,
it's called the Orbital and in that case I'm in favor of what you mentioned,
because we have live performances, but not necessarily within the actual fair,
sometimes they happen inside the fair, but sometimes artists demand a specific place,
that may happen to be in the city and in fact MARTE has always,
from the 1st edition, video art. Because we understand that platforms are very different,
we have our space with a screen, but there are performance artists that prefer a different format
a different kind of screen, another type of location.
In addition, as a curator, I found myself, many times,
in the circumstance to work in different spaces with the same pieces,
so there is a moment in which you have to reduce the spaces,
dramatize it a bit, because people...
I worked with Regina José Galindo I obtained my doctorate studying her work,
I have a close relationship with her, and there's been pieces of her work I had to curate
I know that she doesn't like excessive dramatization
because she's a very direct woman.
But in truth, there were some pieces that I needed, at an educational level,
because I'm also an arts educator,
I needed the audience to have a distinct aesthetic experience.
Sometimes I had to insert a screen inside a tunnel,
where most of the people didn't want to enter, they were a bit upset,
to create this type of effect. So, performance, even if is in a digital format,
even if it is a visual platform, is very malleable,
and I believe this is good.
we're here lamenting the noble materials, like painting, sculpture,
but video art, besides being able to work with different textures within the creation itself,
You as a curator, as an artist, can manipulate it to a greater degree.
Once the piece is created. What I wanted to ask you besides this debate,
is that, many people, including I, that have curated pieces of video art,
when I'm being interviewed or when I comment something,
always end up being asked, where is performance going?
This is a question many times I haven't being able to respond,
So I'd imagine that yourselves, having been working for so many years,
and with this platform, you can see the pulse of where is it going?
Well, I leave it there...
OK, I am Felix Fernández, I'm a video artist, and I'd like to ask,
Why..., well,I'm now in Galicia, I lived many years here,
and left for Galicia and now, we have a collective called RPM,
where we work for the professionalization of the sector,
I wanted to ask in relationship to this subject,
Artist's fees aren't usually included in the grants, right?
I believe is fundamental to say that artists don't survive on just air,
I mean, if is a professionalization needed
knowing fully well that sales in video art are practically, I speak for myself,
there may be people selling a lot and they will tell me
"Well boy, if you are not selling is not my problem"
but in general video art sales are very complex,
So the remuneration one obtains for a video art piece is commonly negligible or scarce,
So, if there are grants for production, what happens with professional fees?
Do we always have to have a second job? Will we always be amateur artists?
Is there a real professionalization of the artists?
That's, somehow, a question I leave there, I know is very complex,
for the times we live in, but I think is important.
OK. I'll answer you. With regards to the professionalization of the artist
we can probably speak a long time, and I agree that we have to keep working, a lot.
Specifically with regard to production grants,
Surely in recent months grants came out
from the Community, the municipality, INJUVE,
I'm not sure if I'm leaving any other out,
Everybody has the same difficulty, but it's the General law of subsidies
who doesn't allow for fees for the recipients of the grants.
If you've seen the grants for the Community of Madrid,
professional fees are not accepted,
and I don't remember the exact administrative phrase,
"if remuneration has been accepted for the work of the artist
with the creation of the requested work"
Silence.
This year, if you've seen the open call, the official bulletin of the Community of Madrid,
there are some scales, which have to be addressed by the jury,
there is a minimum punctuation, which I believe is 15 points,
and there is a table that indicates the monies that artist will receive
in relation to the punctuation received.
I believe that is 5,000€ at the 15 points minimum,
and if I remember correctly at the 25 point maximum it was 15,000€
I mean, in this years open call, which may change in the following years,
the open call that closed last Friday, artists could ask for a minimum of 5k and a maximum of 15k.
Within that budget could be included, for this years open call,
3,500€ as the expenses for the remuneration of the artist...
dedicated to that piece.
Well, this is something that happens in most grants.
And many times. It's true that when you dig into the Regulatory framework,
The law. General Grants Law.
Tedious, tedious.
- And it's true that you guys have found... - Ziiiiip!
a good play on words to move it forward.
It's true that is one of the issues, not just for video artists
any visual artist can find this same problem in any grant program.
I think that there we have a melon we have to find a way of splitting...
because this generates terrible problems.
Terrible problems and very anomalous situations, as well,
Because one has to generate to obtain a minimum of remuneration,
We can pay the photo director, but the artist won't ever be paid, right?
So, you can imagine all the peculiar situations this give rise to.
I believe that is what's proper, the same way
that there's been a political decision to maintain the grants,
we should try to find the political interest or intention
to try to find a solution to this type of issues.
I understand there a sort of logic in the fees for the applicants of the grants,
because it was thought for another type of grant,
and the way is fixed within the regulatory framework,
makes it more complex, we should be looking for a new mechanism...
We have to resolve it, a very challenging task.
Forgive me, one second. In relation to this,
both artists or the team of a cultural association
that asks for a grant cannot receive the fees either.
Us as Proyector, we cannot legally receive any fees,
is an absurd legal limbo, that makes no sense.
There, yes, you could charge a percentage...
It's possible that you may, not us.
In the Ministry's subsidies, well, subsidies...
It's not a subsidy...
On most all grants under the regulatory law of subsidies,
the applicant, and the association as such, cannot receive any remuneration...
If it is a specific project and that person is hired for that project, in that case yes.
That of course, I mean within the framework of the associations.
Within the framework of the associations,
Indeed, a grant can never cover the association's overhead,
I mean, structural expenses for example,
I couldn't think of it, those expenses, no.
Of course, (Unintelligible) can cover a part dedicated to a specific project,
Yes.
Just a comment aside, for the table was called,
now the Community of Madrid is present, but we called on the Ministry,
but for some reason, one we ignore, it's not present here,
the Municipality was also called, we run after them for months
and they couldn't manage to be here,
we called upon some private businesses to be here as well,
and there are not here either.
So the support system is that there are no support systems, clearly.
Well, that was my small comment aside...
And you're lucky, in Valencia there are starting to come out some creation grants,
From the museum consortium.
grants for arts production, but only for the El Carmen Center,
I am from Castellón, there is minute.
And also the handicap, I seen myself in many open calls,
for me, as a curator, with more than 35 years of age you cannot apply.
So you are lucky, here you have a lot of grants and subsidies,
but in Castellón and Valencia, like I said,
the first open calls, since the change of direction by José Luis Pérez Pons,
there are public calls for curating, Pons is very even-handed,
he's always been a very righteous man.
And as I say, you're lucky, I'd like you to see how is the situation in Castellón...
Any other question...? Over here please...
I'd like to respond to Lidón, because, look how is the situation,
that I'm a visual artist from Castellón, but Lidón doesn't know me,
In fact, I'm part of this exhibition in Proyector with a piece in Tabacalera
I believe Lidón knows it, because the gallerist
for whom we produced it back in the day is a friend of hers,
but, look at the situation that we don't know each other personally.
This clearly summarizes how video art takes place in the Spanish Levante.
I don't know him personally, I just know he's represented by Mariano...
But Mariano is the only one... Mariano is a private gallerist in Castellón,
besides, he has a gallery that, as he knows is very atypical,
the artists he represents end up working abroad more than in Castellón or Valencia,
Of the work I know curated by Mariano, I know him in photographs,
and the work I've see in Coll Blanc, in the gallery,
bus as he says, the repercussion in Levante is minimal,
they go directly to Madrid, or abroad to the latest residencies.
That's how it is. I manage to show at the Espai d'art contemporani,
I manage to make video art proposals and they've said
that due to the crisis they can not be done.
I said, you cannot hire some screens? But you sure can rent transport
and much more complex installation process than this,
because they do installations there that I'd like to know how much they spend.
Nevertheless, they do not support video art,
this are institutions that are part of Castellón's council.
Castellón's council has money, I can assure you.
It's not how you've said, for some things they do for others don't,
you support some artists and others you don't, it's not clear.
Any other question?
Another comment. Ramón Mateos mentioned the need to hav a a collector on the table,
we had called a collector for this table, but we decided to move him to the next table
at 14:30 we'll have the collector Jaro Congusian,
the reason for this is language, last year we had a table in two languages
and it was a bit complicated and we proposed the idea
that the second table be in English, because they are French, English,
- an Italian, a Turk, who else I'm missing? - Sounds like a joke
and a Israeli American that's why we'll have the second table in English
and this first round table we decided to do it in Spanish.
That's the reason why we moved the collector to the second table.
Last year we had a collector too, as part of the tables,
with the intention to have the point of view of artists, festival directors, institutions,
we proposed different levels to rethink together the situation
what can we do, how can we better the situation
Is the idea of growing together, and see where can we move forward.
In that sense what I want to point out, is our thanks to Proyector
for having invited the association, and for opening this line of proximity and dialogue
and finding this common ground which is absolutely necessary for video art's projection.
If you're in Castellón, there is a national association,
could be good if all of us know each other, because we end up very defined groups,
and very small lines of...yesterday we were talking to Ione Baigorri
that in Barcelona in in a specific spectrum where everyone knows each other,
but when they arrive in Madrid they don't know anybody,
we're missing structures and common places,
this is self criticism, that must be done within the spectrum of video art,
which is not the theme of this table, for them to see,
what's important would be to have a common view, a common vision.
Something else?
Well, this is it, I close the table. I'd like to thank you for being here.
and I'd like to thank Proyector for inviting the National Association of Video Artists Associated,
thanks to the Community of Madrid for the space and support you provide to Proyector
and you as well, for your presence and interesting voice.
We will give the Ministry a -1 for not being here.
Thanks everybody, we see you next time.
Thank you.
Lastly, I'd like to invite you this afternoon, we'll have two more round tables,
the first one is related to formats and distribution,
we'll continue to ponder these questions at 16:30,
which is the table we were discussing just now,
and after there is a second and last round table
at 18:30 a round table dealing with gender,
we'd be asking why, from our point of view,
we'll be asking, we don't know the reason why, in the last 10 years
there has been less women represented, in the jury there are more women,
in the open calls there are less women,
and we have always selected less women, without intention,
the jury votes blindly, it was voted and there are less women,
We don't really know what's happening,
and we want to invite different thinkers
to ask what's going on with the idea of gender.
So there is a last table where we can explore these themes,
explore if there is discrimination, even a positive discrimination,
or it's nothing. Thank you so much.
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