Welcome back to Educating New Mexico, my name is Bonnie Murphy. We're continuing
our series it's about parent involvement in schools on a very different level
than most the discussion has been about. Welcome back
this is Educating New Mexico and I'm Bonnie Murphy and we're here today with
Gary Williams. Hello. Hi Gary. You have a son Gavin. Gavin is how
old is he now? He's nine. He's nine! He'll be 10 in December. Wow that's amazing! So
he just went into fourth grade (fourth grade) Okay. And so essentially what we're
doing is we're talking about the things that have been going on in education
that are really undermining the process of education and not very helpful
for families. So you've had an experience that prompted me to ask you to come and
you know it's quite an experience and I know we've talked about this
already but it really kind of runs the whole gamut of a lot of the
issues that are going on in both general and special education. Where did it start
from your perspective? I could talk about my perspective as a teacher
but... My perspective; it started maybe about two years ago when he was in
second grade. He was coming from a public school going to a charter school that I
felt that was heralded, really acclaimed charter school. The one thing I
did like about it that they were starting elementary age kids.
So I was thinking, 'Oh, this would be great'. They're, I didn't want to
call them guinea pigs but they'll be you know the first elementary
set of kids that's going through this school so they can build a foundation
of the elementary programs, and I thought that would be really great. And you were
willing to be that part of the learning process. Right, in the beginning.
You had a lot of trust that you guys were going to go through the process together.
Right, and I thought that you know anything that would come up we can you
know that they will work together to fix it and things that would you know, And vice
versa right? Right. Yeah. So as it went on I noticed that
sometimes he would get a lot, I would get a lot of calls. Second grade wasn't too bad
but when he entered into the third grade it seemed like his behavior in the
school changed. So let's talk about second grade. What kind of calls were you
getting? That he was acting out a little bit; had some behavior issues but never
give me the reason why or what happened. It always seemed like he was always the
aggressor or always the one that was starting something. But no one else ever
got in trouble it was always just him. You're talking about children or teachers? Children.
Children. Okay. They seemed like they were the, he was the
only one that was getting in trouble or getting reprimanded and getting written up
and getting documented that he was having these behavior issues. And
not at any point did I have any idea or any inkling that maybe he was falling
behind academically. Oh. So were there parent-teacher
conferences? Yeah there were parent-teacher conferences and they
would just flush me with a lot of numbers and we do this on this day on
the computer, he's at this point; they give me these graph charts and I really
didn't have any idea of what that really meant. So they said, 'Here, this is where he
should be; this is where he's at'. I said, 'So where, is he progressing?'
They'd say, 'Oh he's progressing' and, 'He just needs to work more'. The school never
sent home homework or anything. They said well you can do a lot of stuff at home
on a computer. I didn't, we don't have a computer we didn't have a laptop, and still
don't at this time. Got it. So it was kind of, I would have to probably take
him places to do those things but I thought that he was getting what he
needed in school and I would help when we would read at night and stuff like that
and, but that was the gist of it. But you know the parent-teacher conference was
15 minutes it was blocked off you have to make an appointment you really didn't
get the chance to ask questions per se without if you had something that she
really had a concern with you'll start talking then you know you got a parent
like looking in like, 'Well this is our time next' (Right) in15 min intervals so it was
kind of rushed and a lot of information hosed at you and
you kind of just took it for what it was and say okay, well, we're progressing.
Okay, question; Do you, you had to fill out an opportunity to learn
well I'm sorry it was called a parent survey right? Mm-hmm.
So you filled out a parent survey (correct) at each of those parent conferences correct? Right.
Did you have much time to think about it, what you were going to answer and those, or?
Every time I did a parent-teacher conference survey I
always said I just need more time to talk to the teacher and exactly what are
they doing in class. I said the time structure was too stringent.
It was, there's was just no flow it was just like dat-dat-dat, it was robotic in
nature so you just okay next. Your kid's doing this, he's at this point, he needs
to be here, then, next. That's how it was and I was like, 'Well that doesn't give
me anything.' So in comparison to where he came from did you feel like you were
getting more information than the other school that he was from? I was getting
technical information. I didn't even really get how he was acting in school they
would tell me that he had some behavior hiccups here and there but I didn't get
how he was getting along with his classmates if he was doing anything, how
got along with teachers. So it was a data meeting. It was a data meeting; that's a good
term. It was a data meeting. It was just charts and graphs and this is where we're at
and this is where he needs to be. Mm-hmm. And it seemed like, well he needs to
be here for us for us [laughs] for us to look good. That's the way I took it. And it went
like that from second to third grade. Okay. And then what other kind of notices
so let's see; parent-teacher conferences and then, did you, I mean was he at grade
level proficiency by the end of the school year? In second grade he was at grade
proficiency but it seemed like he went up and down. But he was more down than up
and there was really no plan put in place for him to get to level.
"We'll just keep testing him, we'll keep testing him, we'll keep testing him, we'll keep testing him."
That's what they were saying. And he'll get up to level. So I think when he
left second grade he might have been at level I would have to go look back at
all the documents, but I think he was kind of bordering teetering.
There was a recommendation...For retention? for retention in second grade.
Okay. Yes, there was a recommendation for retention in second
grade, but they may seem like he was close and they were going to help him get
to where he needed to be so I declined the retention. So you signed the waiver?
I signed the waiver, right. And you said no I don't want you to retain him. I didn't want to retain
him in second grade. Okay. So then, how was the summer? The summer was fine.
I started to notice that he was kind of like not looking forward to going back. He
wasn't really excited about it too much. He was excited to see his friends but I don't think he
was really excited about, the academia experience so to speak, or the school
experience itself. Okay. And I kind of shrugged it off. I said, you know what, all kids go through
this. I went through when I was kid just you know. Yeah that whole societal like
"Oh it's time to go back to school". Right, so that's the way I kind of looked at it and then
we got into the school year and it seemed like the behavior things of him
escalated. And not to a point where he was fighting. Or, he had a couple
incidents where he said he did come home and say, 'Dad, this kid does this to me, or that'.
And I you know I don't want to get bullied so I just you know
kind of took things in my own hands. And I told him you know, try to say, I'd say
you know we never kind of put our hands on people but if they put your hands on
you first and you have you know your rights or whatever, and you shouldn't
fight back but it seemed like it was always him. It was always him. No one
never saw that he was pushed down he'll get up and retaliate; boom. He goes to the
Dean's office. Did you encourage him to communicate with the teachers and; I always
ask him, I said you know instead of putting your hands, let the teachers know and
he would say, 'Well I'm letting them know and they're not doing anything about it.
They're not doing anything about it.' And I said, is that after you do what you do or
is it before? He said 'no'. I tell the teacher that someone's bugging me or
someone's talking to me or saying, you know in one instance it was talking about his
mother. His mother's deceased. And he got upset about that. And so he went to tell
the teacher and so I think something happened I have
to like I said, look back through things; something happened and they didn't
understand. When I explained to the teacher what happened, they were like, 'Oh
we didn't know.' And I was like, 'Well but it really shouldn't matter that you
didn't know. No kid should be talking about another kids mother.'
Right. And it doesn't matter if they're alive or deceased they shouldn't be talking
about each other's mothers like that. Absolutely. And so they said, 'Well
we'll look out for that.' And so he didn't have any problems with kids talking about his
mother, but it seemed like it was always something petty here and there,
but I didn't understand why he always had to get sent to the office. Okay.
And sent to the Dean. And then when he, so when he got sent to the office what
would happen then? Then he would think he would be in trouble when he got
home so he'd just kind of lose it and they would call me say, 'We can't calm him
down. You've got to come get him.' Was he being
suspended or was it just come pick him up? Sometimes it was just come pick him up, we're not
going to suspend him. But , lo and behold...That's not how it works. It didn't work that
way. So they said, 'Well, we're sending him home.' So, but then when I looked at his, you know I guess
his the demerit sheet or something like that, those were considered suspensions.
And I said well he only is, you sent him home for the next one half a day and he
was able to come back the next day. Okay. So it wasn't like he was sent home and
had to stay home, at first. Okay. So it almost kind of like, they let it build up.
'You got to come get him we can't calm him down.' And then when I come get him
I see other kids doing almost the same exact same thing he was doing, maybe
even worse. That you saw? That I saw. At one time; I've come to the
Dean's office more than time more than enough times and I would sit there and
he would come in there and they would be throwing things and stomping their
feet. Gavin would just sit in the corner and just cry. Or just be like,
'No I don't want, don't touch me' and just kind of you just kind of shell up. And I've seen kids
just running around throwing things I'm like, 'But they get to stay in school and
I have to come pick, I have to leave work come from Bernalillo and all the way to
come pick him up and find somebody to watch him for the rest of the day.' Yeah.
And I didn't understand that. Why, you know, you couldn't handle an eight year old
that wasn't being violent, that wasn't throwing chairs, that wasn't hitting teachers
that wasn't doing anything violent. What was he doing? He would just
sit and cry. Just cry. And just kind of uncontrollably; he'd hyperventilate and
stuff like that. And then so we, I got called in. 'We need to have a meeting
about his behaviors.' Still nothing talked about; Are we talking about third grade still? Third
grade, right. Okay. So third grade we have to have a meeting about his
behaviors. We need to do something, put a plan in place. Didn't know what type of
meeting this was. So you didn't have any idea what you were coming to do?
Right, it was just a meeting with the teachers, the Dean and I don't even know if
it was the Special Ed teacher, but it was some kind of counselor or something like
that. So you had a parent meeting and it was a large parent meeting with a lot
of attendance, attendees so teachers and different um, Right; the counselor she was
the reason why I was called. And she would say that he would do well with her
and didn't have any problems and when he would come to her and
there would be no problems or anything like that.
So, but we got into this meeting so, they said Mr. Williams we need to come up with a plan
and they were trying to think of things we need maybe a de-escalation
plan when he comes; I'm sorry. I'm sorry I just, before I forget to ask; This was the
first behavior meeting? Yes. Throughout second grade and third grade? Right. And
how far into third grade was this? This was almost a quarter in. Okay. Maybe a
quarter in. Okay. Because they were deeming it chronic at
this point. Oh okay. So I had no idea of where he was at maybe academically.
The behavior stuff concerned me. Yes. And but we were, we need to get a plan of
how we, a behavior; this was the first time I heard Behavior Intervention Plan.
Okay. But did not know that technically that's what the meeting was. But
they never told me what type of meeting it was, so we were trying to get some things
in place. So I came up with everything of how we should do this. They made no
suggestions. So I said Gavin does well with checklists. So then the academic
stuff started coming out in this meeting. Right. Which was, but it was behavior
meeting. So I said well maybe if you give Gavin a checklist and show that he did
this, he can check it off and it gives him a sense of accomplishment that he, so. Yes. We
did that, I thought of that and I said well I mean, give him a chance to
calm, I said, you know he doesn't like to be touched when he's angry.
So, and if he gets to that point where he gets angry and frustrated, give him a minute to calm
himself. And I suggested the whole thing and they roll all this stuff down, 'Oh
this is a great idea Mr. Williams!" and everything. And I think we're
going to implement that. Okay. Did you guys all sign a plan? Was it a plan you all
signed, or no? No. Okay. It was, who else was there? I think this is kind of important.
The Chairman. Oh, the Board? The Board Chairman. The Board Chairman was at the behavior
meeting? Yes. Yes. So he was there so, and he was telling me, 'Yeah we need to, we really like
Gavin we really want to you know we really want to keep him here. It was almost
like a sales pitch. So, we really want to keep him here we don't want to you know
kick him out of the school or you know get to that point where we you know
start suspending him and stuff like that.
And so we put this plan in place. And maybe a week or so went on and you know
it started flaring up again. But how are you supposed to know if it was
working? I mean.. I don't know I didn't know. What, did you get any kind of
progress reports or? No. I would, one or two teachers would show me his checklists or
send me a text message of a photo shot of checklist, 'Gavin did great today.'
Okay. And I would, and I said you know give him reaffirm that he's doing good he likes
praise, he likes to know he's doing great. And they start sending me pictures
only two teachers. Because I think he had like maybe four or five because
they had changed classes. And so I would get a checklist picture of a checklist...Eight.
He had eight teachers. Eight teachers. Wow! I didn't even know it was that many. So he, I
would get a picture from maybe just two teachers. Okay. But I would get text messages, 'Oh
Gavin did good today' or, 'Gavin had a rough day but he rebounded.' And those
kind of things but only two teachers showed me two checklists that I said
that he really, will work good. So this went on... Was he doing well in those classes? He was
doing good; In those particular classes? Yeah, he was doing good. He was doing I guess at level.
I think he wasn't excelling but he was doing at level and he was least
completing the work because he had a goal. So we get into some more behavior
issues. I get called in to another meeting with teachers and I was
like why, and I had the question of why are we here over something that we, you
guys are you implementing the plan that we put in place? And the other teachers are like
'What plan? What checklist? What, what are you talking
about?' The teachers are different. Yeah. Didn't they switch, weren't teachers changed? Yeah, there was a
lot of rotation of teachers he always had a different teacher. It was maybe two
or three teachers that were there the whole time but it seemed like they were always
switching teachers. So, I mean, to me that says that there's not a whole lot
of consistency in the classroom. No there wasn't consistency so, if you
get (excuse me) if you get a new teacher every now and then who doesn't know his
behavior patterns...Or how to teach the curriculum and they're still learning how. Right,
or didn't know about the behavior, or pseudo behavior plan that we had in
place. Right. So now they just send him to the office whenever he kind of shuts
down. Right. So, it was and this went on for the rest of the school year
off and on. I'm getting calls from the Dean you know and he was getting suspended
for just him not doing work. He said, 'Well we can't have this you know I can't have
him sitting here, you need to come get him, he's gonna be suspended for one day.'
Then one day went to two days. Then two days went to three days. And then it
kind of stayed at three days. So anytime that he you know maybe burped the wrong
way or even the most minor things he was getting suspended. I wish I had the
number of days that he missed from suspension
and so how can you not; and then you tell me he's behind a whole grade level (right) when
he's missed over 13 to 14 days of school due to suspension, not him not coming to
school but him being suspended or sent home from the academic process. So
this started getting kind of frustrating to me, you know? And then it was you know
the Dean was like, 'Well you know we're really trying to work with Gavin.' I said
'Work with him, how?' You know, 'We can't, his behavior is just becoming chronic
we don't know what' you know, and then it was suggested that he might have maybe a
learning deficiency. And but then I come to find out sometimes it's like what was
he doing in class? Is he not doing the work? I said you know, 'Gavin, what's going on?' He
said, 'I don't understand stuff, I don't get stuff.' I said, 'Well are you asking for
help?' 'Yeah I'm asking for help but I'm not
getting it. They'll kind of push me off and go help other students.' And I said
'Are those like star students in the class that they're helping, or just
everybody who's struggling, anybody who else is struggling like you?' 'No, those
kids are doing pretty decent in the class; they're doing pretty good in the
class, they seem to get more help.' And so he was getting
frustrated with that, so I was trying to maybe come to conclusions and said,
Well maybe he's, since he's not getting the help that he needs he's
going to get the attention that he needs. Attention-seeking behavior. Right. Got it.
It's almost, and that's what I started thinking it was. So if I'm not getting the help
you need, I'll do something; pull out a chair or whatever, and um, now it's on
me. Now you have to help me. Right. But then he didn't understand that, now that's a
behavior problem, you go to the office, you don't get the help that you were
maybe seeking. Now you're in the Dean's office and I'm getting a phone
call. Right. And so I got a lot of calls and lot of it, I'd say 50% of the time I was able to
calm him down and he'll go back to class and maybe rebound. But the other 50% they
just didn't want to deal with him. And it wasn't that he was a bad kid, he just
wanted help or maybe was just frustrated that he wasn't getting what
he needed and he acted out. So were you aware of
any interventions that he was getting as far as academic? No. You weren't aware of
any academic interventions? No. When he was behind and I guess they
figured that he was behind a lot; in another meeting...Middle of the
year probably around...Before PARCC testing. Right, that would be a recommendation for a notice
of not being proficient. Right. And also then the term I guess to repeat third
grade started coming up. Oh. Okay, started coming back up,
retention started coming back up. And if he doesn't get any better then we have to
retain him. Or may need to start thinking about retaining him. And
that was the second, this is the second year that this is being discussed? Right.
Right so, and I was just really frustrated, I was like I don't know why
this is happening and what's going on with him and his behavior because I didn't
have this behavior when he was at Montezuma. Montezuma elementary school
when he was kindergarten and first grade. Didn't have these kind of behavior
problems. But when he got to the charter school it was just, went crazy and I just
didn't understand why and why weren't we getting, why wasn't I getting the help
instead of him just getting suspended? You know suspended all the time. Right. So
I think at that point they, I don't know about the middle of the year
towards the end they started talking about an IEP. And I was kind of against...When
you say 'IEP' it's an Individualized Education Program. Right. And the normal route
for that is a person a child gets into the SAT process so that's a Student
Assistance Team. Mm-hmm. That never happened. Okay, so you guys never had a
SAT meeting (no) for the entire almost two years? Right, never had one of those,
never had Behavior Intervention meeting. Well like a formal one you mean?
A formal one. Just a lot of informal meetings with teachers and saying what we're gonna do
with your son. Never had that StAT meeing? The 'SAT' meeting. Yeah the SAT meeting. Never
had one of those. I might have had one but they probably didn't, never called it that.
You would have had to sign papers and it would have been very clear that it was a
Student Assistance Team meeting and then that's also, um you can also develop an,
well, by statute, right? You're supposed to develop an Academic Improvement Plan for
a child who's struggling and who's behind, who's not a proficiency, who's not
able to read at grade level by the time they are being recommended. Your parents
are being notified for, that their child's not reading at grade level. Right.
I didn't get anything like that. It felt like that they were trying to push him
out of the school. When that came up we did this long meeting, they did the
tests, I guess the assessment. Right and normally you've heard a child would go
through the classroom interventions consistently right? So that
might have been able to take care of it right? Right. It might have been able to
take care of it. And then if they don't succeed in that area they go to the tier
2 and tier 2 is where there's more intense interventions and then possibly
even being pulled out for you know maybe a social worker or something like that
and then if those don't work for quite some, you know for some time not
quite some time but some time depending on the child, then they get referred for
diagnostic testing and that's what you're talking about is happening
right now. Right. Okay. And so, and this was at the end of the school year towards
like maybe April. Ok. April-March, April ish. And now, from you know where
I work, and I work with kids in high school and middle school, an IEP process
takes, it's a lengthy process. Mm-hmm. His, Usually. Usually. His IEP was done in
two weeks. I've never, I've been working with kids for almost five years; I've
never seen an IEP done in two weeks. And what were the circumstances that the IEP
was met, was brought up to you? How was it brought up to you as far as...I think
because he was behind and not proficient and where he should be. And
they were feeling, I really didn't get the really gist of why we were at an IEP
and we're saying that he's deficient when you were saying that they were
saying that we were going to help him get back up to level. And in the IEP
process there really, I didn't really see the plan the improvement plan. And I said
well I was, I asked I said, 'Well you're talking about an improvement plan kind of
but it's the end of school year. How is that going to work?' Mm-hmm. Was there
any discussion about him staying in the charter school placement or going to a
different placement for a different school? That was the funny part. They were
really adamant about putting him on IEP, but then in the next breath they said, 'We can't
support that IEP.' Okay, so what you're saying is that they said, first they said
let's get him on it on an IEP, (right) and then right after you did that...Yeah we,
they said...We can't support that, what's recommended on the IEP. So he
needs to go to a different school. He needs to go to a different school that supports an
IEP because we can't support that IEP. I said 'Well what IEP's do you support?' 'Well
we don't support IEPs.' I guess it must be the most minimum type of IEPs that they
can support because they recommended that he learns in a small classroom
setting, and they said 'Well we can't support that.' Okay. Because this school is
full inclusion (yeah) and there are maybe special education teachers in there
maybe not...Someone told me they were a special education teacher, I got
credentials but, when it came down to it and basically from April to the end of
school year I had to scramble to find him another placement before, for school
next year. If I decided to bring him back they were really going to,
I thought about it, they were looking for a way to get him out of the school. He had a
little incident another kind of meltdown since he was deemed chronic, I said 'Well
he's on IEP you can't suspend him for more than 10 days.' 'We're going to have to long
term suspend him.' Which took him, his suspension took him from that point to
the end of the school year. I said well, I don't know too much about this
I said, but I know if you suspend a kid more than five days you have to provide
education for them while they're out of school. Ten days,
yeah. And so you giving him a ten day suspension, what are you going to do for his
education for those ten days? Long story short...
Work on the computer. Well no, not even that. Oh. They told me, they said, 'Well we don't have
anybody here that can do that but he can come in', I guess the Special Ed teacher
said that, 'Well he can come in for an hour a day.' Or an hour a week. I think I
think it was a week or two days. It wasn't like a full week. He can come in for an
hour a couple of days a week, and I guess
work on the computer and that'll be it. So I would have to get him to school and
it had to be a certain time like nine o'clock to ten o'clock or something and
then he had to leave. He couldn't stay there. So that was the
that was their solution for him to being on a 10-day suspension. And I was like
you know what, I'm done. I basically in my mind said, you guys win, you win. I will
withdraw him from school. Because that makes no sense to me. So he
didn't go to school for the last two weeks of the school year. So it was very
frustrating. How was he doing during this whole
process? I think he didn't really understand what was going on (yeah)
And he would, I think he would say, 'Dad am I a bad kid? And you know am I
bad kid or anything like that? It's like 'no'. It's, this is kind of grown-up stuff
at this point. This is grown-up stuff at this point. You're not a bad kid, you're
doing what you, what a nine-year-old does. I said, 'However you know you need to take
responsibility for some of your actions.' I said I can't say responsibility for all
your actions. I will do what, I'll fight for you, but I can't fight your bad
behavior. I can't fight you not wanting to work. I said however you've got to want
help. He said, 'I asked for help.' I said, 'That's fine.' I said, 'But the process in
this process now is kind of an adult thing. I really can't explain too
much more that you would understand.' Right. So he wasn't hurt about it but I think he
was kind of happy that he wasn't going back. And then it flip-flopped during that
summer because he was kind of wanting to go back because he kind of wanted to go
back to his friends (right) but, it came to that point where I was just like, 'No we can't,
I have to do something else.' So they were even, 'Well what schools are you looking
at?' And I'm like, 'I'm not looking at any schools; you just guys water hosed me
with the IEP, all this other stuff, I have no idea what you guys are talking about
too much but you want me to figure out a new school. A new school for him. And they
were nice about it you know, 'Well we will research the schools that you, you know
have an idea about you want to send him to.' I was like, 'Okay, I've already done my
research but I'll see what you guys come up with.' Because I had thought of two
private schools and two public schools that were near where we live. Okay.
And I had called these schools before and the private school, one's a private school
wouldn't do the IEP, the other private school would. So I was just kind of like
I don't want to really go through this process...So I'm sorry, you're saying that
there was a private school that you tried to get into and they said he has
an IEP we're not going to accept him? We can't support that type of IEP.
Because of, I guess because it's small classroom setting, because he had to have
breakout sessions. So they couldn't. They said they couldn't really do that. The
other school said they could. So I was left with basically the APS schools
which I found and they were really accepting of it, so. Okay. Well you know
this is an ordeal, did you think about you know, I mean like you said putting up
a fight? There's a whole like, due process hearing and all that kind of stuff. I did put up a fight and I think the
more the fight I put up, the more they kind of stood their ground, or the more they
seemed like, and I really don't want to say that I felt that they were targeting
him, the more I fought the more it seemed like, the more I fought the more I pushed
back, the more he seemed like to get in trouble for the smallest things. He broke
a pencil. He was labeled destruction of school property for breaking a pencil.
The teacher called me I was like, 'Well do you want to replace the pencil?' I said I
can go get you a whole bushel of pencils if that's the case for one pencil that
was broken. Okay. Then I looked at his report, it was
on his report that he destroyed school property. But they
didn't say what school property it was? Nah, the pencil. The one pencil that he
broke it was destruction of school property. One pencil. So that's like I
guess ten demerits on the demerit system, the highest that you can get of
destruction of school property. And his list was just so long of stuff I was
looking at it was like this is ridiculous. But when did you look at that list? They
didn't give that to me until the end of the school year after, well when we did
the IEP thing. So they gave me the list of all his stuff of his you know
demerits or whatever that, I can't think of what that thing is called, of
everything he got in trouble for. So you had never seen that before? No.
No. That was the first time I saw it. And then when the Special Education
teacher went through she looked at cross them, well we'll cross you know
that's not you know the, all these things that were kind of like dumb that I
thought were dumb when I read through. She said 'Yeah that is kind of.' I said 'So you
haven't even seen it!' Oh, the special education teacher had
never seen the entire list (right) of everything that had been happening. Correct
For how many years? Two years? Two years so two years so, and she looked at the
destruction of school property and was like 'What did he break?' I said, 'A pencil. He
broke a pencil. Just broke a pencil because he was frustrated because he
wasn't getting the help that he felt that he needed. Okay. So I sat down with
Gavin and I was like, 'Something's not right. What you really need to tell me
and be truthful and honest, I don't care what it is. Be truthful and honest and
tell me what is going on?' And the first thing he said, he said 'I just don't like the
change. Changing of classes. I think he said 'it's too much' in so many words.
He said, 'I don't like the change in classes, it was always somebody different.' He
really really harped on that. That he didn't like going through changing
classes, going through different classes. I said, 'Well you have to do that when you go
to middle school. Are you going to you know, you got to kind of. At least you got exposed
to it. It's not going to be a culture shock when you get to middle school (right). So you
did, you are getting exposed to that so, but I think it's kind of early
for a second grader and third grader to be doing multiple classes like that.
And so he said, 'I really miss just having one class in one classroom.' I said, 'Okay.'
I said that's understandable but the behavior's what's causing that. That's
like I just can't believe just you not wanting to change classes is causing you
to act out like this. And that's basically he, that's the only thing
he really kind of harped on. Well besides the other things that he had already which was he needed help.
Right. He didn't feel like he was getting the help that he needed. And so we you
know, discussed it. I didn't discuss where the schools that I was
choosing for him but I knew I had to be, it was going to be in district. In a
district where we lived. And he looked forward to it kind of because he
was like, 'Well I don't have to wear uniform no more.' Oh, right. So but now it's just out
of that environment it just seems he's a different kid student wise. He still
struggles. Okay. Still struggling. But is he getting the help that he needs? Yeah he's
getting the help that he needs. He has to break out classes for reading and math. Does he
have an Academic Improvement Plan? Yes. He does?! When we had, because when
you do the transfer IEP (yeah) so we had to, they had to put, I had a meeting
Within the 30 days, first 30 days of school. They did it within the first two weeks of school. Okay.
And so we sat down with the Special Ed teacher and they're supposed to have someone
else, but they brought in the principal because she was qualified to do it
because she had the credentials to sit in on the meeting
and we sat down and she said, 'I really went over you're
the IEP.' And she said 'I really don't understand the behavior issues that
they're stating in the IEP.' She said 'We haven't seen that.' And if it was
and she did say if it was that deep, if it was that critical, that it should
have continued when he got here. And she said 'I don't really understand why they
said that.' And I was being kind of tongue-in-cheek I said because they
wanted to kick him out of school. They wanted to kick him out of school without
expelling him. Because that word came up a lot too towards the end. Expelling him.
Okay. That's why they put him and I think that was the reason why they put him on
a 10-day suspension because they didn't want to expel him. I said well at this point you
can I mean but I don't want that on his record. I'm going to withdraw him anyway. But we
had that meeting and we put a plan in place; we said we're going to have the break
our classes. And there's a, he goes to his Special Ed teacher and they work on a
lot of math and reading to get him up to speed. And they were really adamant about, but I
said whell we're gonna really work with him to get him to where he needs to be
and get him the tools that he needs to continue.
So whereas at one school it was, you're hearing this, probably the same thing
'We're gonna get him up to speed', the other school now that he's at you're
actually seeing it happen? (Right) Are you getting progress reports and updates about how he's doing?
I haven't got any progress reports yet...It's been like two weeks right? Yeah I had an
open house (yeah) and I really sat with the teacher, the Special Ed teacher and she was
like 'He's making progress.' He gets a little frustrated but he, not like
crazy...But are they showing you data? Yes. Just to make sure...they show me his work, they're showing me
his work and what he's working on what he's struggling with and what he needs to
work on. And he's and I'm looking at his work (yes) to me looking at his work and
seeing where he was, because I didn't see any of his work he was doing in school.
Oh, before he left. Right, so me to see where I said okay he's struggling I can understand
why he's struggling with this, I can see where he's struggling with that,
oh he's making improvements here, (okay) he's reading, his reading's up and down but
he's reading fluently, he's understanding what he's reading, his sentence structure
is getting better. Okay. So there's some, to me that's
improvement from where he was, where he came from. That's a lot of improvement. It
may not be where I want him to be he or, you know, but he's making improvements.
But it just seems sad that this could have been caught two years ago. It could have
been caught two years ago. And it's just, it just kind of pains me that it
wasn't. Right. Because I'm looking at him in, as a fourth grader, and you can't do some
basic things or you struggle with basic things which you should have done in
second and third grade. Right. So it's a little frustrating it's...It's not just a
little frustrating is it? [laughs] It's a lot of frustrating. It's a lot of frustrating
but he has homework and we work on homework
together. Would you say that makes a big difference too? Is having the homework and
being able to work on it with him and...It makes a big difference, even though I'm
not the most patient person but, I wanted to know how they do, how they're trying
to teach math now and...That's pretty crazy isn't it? (yeah) It's pretty complicated. Like I get it, I get it it's
teaching him how to problem-solve and be analytical. But I was like, in the real
world son you've got to just kind of do it this way [laughs]. You know you kind of got to do
it this way. He's a little, he's just a little behind. They're doing like I think
now multiplication but, they're kind of since he's on the IEP he has to put that
on hold and he's doing his long addition or subtraction and (Mmm-hmm) and fractions
and stuff. Right. So he's getting there maybe two steps behind but he's, he's getting there.
I think the environment is just a lot
better, it's just a better environment that he's in right now. So do you
think you would have pulled him out two years ago? Or do you think that if you
had been given, if he had been given some kind of different help; more data or not
data like, I mean I guess yeah, I mean you've gotta be able to see
where the child is at right? Oh he's a little bit behind but really actually be
able to see if they're behind or not. I can't tell how far behind
he is on a chart or a graph. I can't tell. You can, that's just data
like you said. I can't tell how far he's behind. What do you think you would need
to be able to understand where he's at? The chart is fine but I just need to see
how is he progressing in class. Just a communication from the teachers because
they're with him all day. Yeah. Where he was at his other school is part here, part here, part
here, part here, part here, since he had so many different teachers. So I don't know
exactly, I just think that there should be more communication. If you see him
struggling, or a child struggling, it needs to be kind of, kind of quick. Like
hey, your son's kind of struggling here we need to maybe, to do something. Mm-hmm.
He's struggling with this we maybe need to do something. And not wait till it's
too late where a child might be like, not just my child; any child.
You know my, somebody else's child might be worse.
Maybe worse in how they react to not getting help that they need. But I've
been trying to teach him to really ask for help when needed. It seems
like with Gavin that he needs to build that trust (yeah) before he's really
able to open up and talk to people. Yeah I believe that. And once you get going
he's just you know he's a butterfly then. The trust factor is really big (yeah) with him.
How do you think his trust is now? It's, I think it's good. He doesn't talk in
any negative things about his teacher. He really, like he really likes his
Special Ed teacher. He even says well she makes the work fun. She makes it, it's
not like cracking the whip I guess, so to speak. But he really likes that. Only
probably is he really kind of dealing with now that some kids know that he's in
"Special Ed" and so I said, 'Well that's what kids do.' And you know he said 'Well
dad well you know the kids say I'm in Special Ed you know, and why is that?'
And I was like, 'Well because you're getting the extra help that you needed when you
should have gotten it before.' Right. And said some kids just needed a little
more, a little more help than others. You just need a little more help. But also it
means you need to work harder. Right, so he can get...To be where he needs to be.
Right. So developmental delay; that's his, right? Isn't that his diagnosis
was a developmental delay? I believe so. Okay. Because I think that you can't
continue with that diagnosis past like nine years old (mm-hmm) that's
really interesting that they gave him the same diagnosis at nine years old
for three years. That's really interesting. Yeah so, we'll see. I think he hopefully he
snaps out of it or begins to like school again because I think he got to the point
where he just didn't like school. I don't know I really think that's, he got to the
point, 'I don't like school.' Which is kind of hard for an eight or nine year-old. Absolutely, but it's not too
it's not too late to change that you know? Right. He's still early enough
that (right) you know and from what I can see you know, what I've experienced and
being able to talk to you is that, you're very encouraging to him.
You're very positive. You exude determination and positive; we are
we're just going to change this. We're going to move forward we're going to do it
differently, we're gonna go forward, and we're going do it. And so that's
going to be his rock. Yeah. You know you're his rock to be able to help him get through
this and not, you know, build that resiliency and not let it take him down.
(mm-hmm) And I think too how the curriculum with the curriculum is to I think where
he came from it was really curriculum towards passing the PARCC test or
passing certain numbers or passing certain, we need to, we need to be at this
number all our kids need be at this number. Where he's at now they're
concerned about that too, but they're a STEM school now so they're beginning STEM so
he's like looking forward to building robots. Or, and what it takes to code to
do that. I said, but I said 'You're running right now. You need to crawl before you
can get to that point a little bit more. I said so do you see how important it is to
get your, to get your reading? You've got to read to, read the code, how to do the
code. You're going to have to make calculations; math. I said, see how that all comes into play?
It's not just because we want you to learn math; you need to learn math, it's a
reason. You like doing the robots. You like on a tablet and making the code for
the robot. But you're just doing that because you kind of, they're telling you
that is what you need to do but, you have to get to a point where you have to read
and learn and make the decision how to do that. But do you like doing that? And he's
like 'Yeah.' I say 'Well, you need to get this down really good so you can do this.
Right. So it's more geared, so you're helping him transfer that
information to real life and his future. Right because I always tell him, I say
College starts now. College starts now. I say you might not
think, it might seem way off in the distance but it really does start now. I
said, and how you take, have attitude towards school really starts now. Right.
So if you could say anything to parents about your situation, what
advice, if they were going through something similar what would you what
would you give it, give them some advice about? What would you advise them to
do? Don't be afraid to ask questions. don't be afraid to ask how the
curriculum is. Don't; just be persistent, they will fight back, they'll bite back
you know? The school will bite back when you kind of challenge them. But just be
consistent. I really fought with that school. More than I should have
should have fought with that school. And it happened so fast it was in a small
block too so it was it was intense. And so it took a lot out of me emotionally.
But I would just say to parents just continue just to advocate for your
child because the child really can't at this age cannot advocate for himself.
Don't take up for the child, if you know; right is right, wrong is wrong. Bad
behavior is bad behavior. So fix that in the home so they can be a conduit you know
and learn. Be a cup that can be filled up. So I always tell Gavin I said you know
always go to school with your glass empty so it can be filled up.
Because (that' so cool) if you go to, if you go with your glass full, nobody can
put nothing in it, because you think you have everything. You think you know
everything. I said I'm still learning so you have so much to learn. So
always go to school with your cup empty so it can get filled up. I like that. What would you
give advice to teachers about if they have a child who is exhibiting
these kind of behaviors in their classroom? Talk to the parent. Just don't
deem them a problem; a problem child or behavior issue. Talk to the parents first.
You might get a lot from the parent. Maybe something's going on at home that
the kids bringing to school. I felt that you know I didn't have anything I don't
there's nothing that at home where he would just be like, 'Ah man,
you know I didn't eat last night.' Or you know, 'Mom and dad are having problems,
money problems' or anything like that. Kids take that stuff with them, they don't say
nothing they'll, but just kind of talk to the parent before you just start sending them to the
principal's office. Be proactive and not reactive. I think that's big. Just be
proactive. Because the parent might not even know that something's going on in
school. Because the kids come home be like, 'Yeah I had a great day school.' Right! And
teacher's like, 'No he didn't'. [laughs] You know, and they don't know that. Talk to the parent. Right.
Teachers, talk to your parents. And for just let's just say for our
politicians who are getting ready to take office and probably appoint a new
Secretary of Education who's going to kind of drive what's going on in education
what would you say to them? Like what, what do we need? How can we fix this
kind of pervasive issue, you know these multiple pervasive issues that
are going on in education? I know that's a big question but...It's a very big
question. I think one thing; the teachers need to be empowered. The teachers don't
feel that they're empowered. It's a job. It's like working at Walmart or working
at Home Depot or working any other nine-to-five job. They have to be
empowered. They got into education for a reason because of the love of helping
kids or whatever their what their passion is for going into the education
realm. They have to be empowered and you know we want to say throw money throw
money throw money. Money is really not the answer because we don't know how
that money gets spent. But the teachers need to be empowered to want to really
help these kids. There are a lot of teachers out there that are empowered,
but there's a lot of teachers out there that are not.
I have a few friends that are teachers; they were burnt out. Overworked and
underpaid. I just think just need to empower
empower the kids to want to learn. It just seems like we don't, the kids don't
want to learn. I think that's part of the technology thing that we live in now
it's so much easier to do some things but they have to want to learn and to
motivate the kids to learn and a good environment, not a stressful environment.
If I really had my way, eliminate the PARCC testing. And do what? And just
have most of your schools STEM schools. But there, I mean I know there's a way to
evaluate how the child is learning but the PARCC test seems there's so much
pressure on kids to pass the pass the PARCC test. But all kids don't learn the
same way. So you're doing it at, boom you have to know by then, so that forces
the teachers to just drive what they need to learn for the PARCC test. They're
not really learning nothing. All they're learning is the PARCC test. So what do you
think about having balance? So it not just being about a one end-of-the-year
assessment I mean, because when I think about the PARCC it reminds me of what
I sometimes have to do in college. Like I have to take an assessment to pass you know
to get my licensure for teaching (right) and stuff like that but you know more
application like hands-on (yeah) for your future (right) those kind of skills
right? The professional and kind of life skills, is that kind of what you're saying is maybe
Right yeah, and I think that doesn't come along till they get to high school
maybe in middle school, but in elementary school it just seems like it's totally
different on how they push push push. It's almost
like structure-structure-structure-structure which is fine but you got some kids that
thrive in that and excel in that and then you have other kids that you know back
away from that. Do you think that parents should have a choice or do you think
that parents know their kids well enough in school settings and for what they
need to learn in school to be able to make that choice about where they should
go to school? Like we have APS you know district boundaries right? You are
required to go to that school unless, you get a transfer to another school if
your child's school has more than 2 F's, 2 or more F's but that's if they're
not full (right) then you'd have to look at another school right? Right. And then you
know and then charter schools where you can enter the lottery but those are only
held in February-April, March of every school year
but I mean do you think parents should have that, have more choice? I think so
and you know one thing that happens too is like I when I was to go back when I
was researching schools and I was just blown away if you look at the map of
Albuquerque where the D and F schools were and where were the A, B, A and B
schools were. And probably a lot of people don't know that. And they probably have an idea.
You can almost, if you live in Albuquerque you know where the A and B
schools are. You know where probably the F and D schools are. The C schools are
where they're at. C schools are in the middle of the city. It's kind of weird I
mean I thought it was just kind of sad that, foothills, anything north, La Cueva
district, Eldorado district, Academy district, all that, oh those were A and B
schools. Where I live Del Norte, West Mesa, those schools were
D's and F's. Elementary schools. And then anything kind of in the middle they were
C schools. And it was really kind of like it was almost kind of depressing
to see that. Mm-hmm. Because now I have to fight for my kid if I want him to go to an A
school up in the, and I either have to move up there or try to put him on the
waiting list to get into those schools. I think you should be able to choose where you
want to go, but then I don't want to see the depletion of the schools in the inner
city where (exactly) where say well I'm taking my kid out of here and now these
schools become F and F minuses. But think about capitalism right? It's
if they're doing really well if those schools have a lot of students and these
other schools don't have the students it's because people are leaving
them right? Right. But what a disruption. Shouldn't every school be able to offer
high quality education? Correct. Because then what about the kids
that are being left behind? Right, and I, one interesting thing that I did
find out when I went to open house at school that Gavin's at now, the principal
talked, because it's a Title I school, (mm-hmm) Title I school and she, and we talked about
and I actually asked a question about the grades
I said so and she was saying that you can be improving, you can be improving
and get a, let's say you go from F to a D and you're trying to go from a D to a C
that they'll take, they'll give you the money when you're an F school, but when
you start improving they take that money away. Yes. And so now you can't maintain
your progress. That's right. And I was like blown away. I said so, and the question I
asked I said 'Well how do, besides charter schools being basically free
private schools, I said so how do most of these charter schools get A+
ratings?' And she kind of, she kind of was like, don't, really don't get her started
on that so it was kind of funny. She said well if you kind of think about it
too when you said lottery for the private schools she said, she said my
personal opinion; I think they pick and choose who they want in those schools. Yes.
I've seen it happen, myself. To maintain, to maintain their ratings. They pick and
choose. She said that's why there's a lottery. That's why you just can't go to a
charter school. You have to go into the lottery. Right. And the lottery is
supposed to be putting your information in but not giving them enough
information to be able to screen (mm-hmm) but as we know there are schools who
have their, you know the application process is basically filling out the
entire registration form. Right. It's like ten pages or something. Right yep it's a big packet. And that's all
the information that you know...They need...to figure out if they want to have you there or not.
It's funny so, yeah, I think there should be some balance and power so to speak, or
balance and education in the city where it's fair and I just don't think it's
fair around the city. Accountability. Accountability. So I have an idea what do
you think about making sure that every school has a page somewhere that you
know they're starting to do that at the PED, they have they're starting to put
pages for school grades with some videos that will explain you know what these
school grades mean. But more information than just school grades: How many kids
are being suspended? Right. How many kids are being expelled? How many kids are
leaving the school? How many kids how many new kids are they getting?
Teachers: how many teachers have left? How much rotation are they having with
teachers? Yeah and your demographics even as far as like how many kids are being
suspended that are Hispanic? Or how many kids are (right) or how many kids are
being, and I want to say why, you don't really have to go into why (yes) and then at
the elementary level you really, I think you should at the elementary level because I
really don't think, I was blown away about an elementary school kid getting
suspended unless they were fighting. But just to be (yeah, even in kindergarten) just to be folding their arms
up like this and say you know I just don't want to work right now. Then you're
getting suspended from school. I just...That's called a zero-tolerance policy.
Yeah. Yes. And I was like, I was blown away that they're suspending kids right
and left for just minimal stuff like that. I mean the whole point is for us to
figure out what kids need right, and help them so they can become
productive and you know happy and you know. I think two more counselors in
school too. One counselor for one school, that I think is not enough. I think you
need to have some counselors that are specialized in some things in behavior
problems or counselors and regular counselor I think just you need to have a set
of counselors. One or two or two or three that are specialized in certain things so you
have a kid that has a behavior problem; let's get to root of that, okay. You
have a kid that just having problems at home; they see a social worker type
person. You have a kid that has whatever and that way you have one counselor that doesn't just
like getting flooded with everything like, okay, I don't know what to do with you. You know I
think you should have some specialized counselors in the school. I think that would help
too. Well now they're having the truancy and attendance coach is also the social
worker...Mm-hmm yeah everybody's wearing multiple hats. Yes. So you kind of
somebody's going to get left, and you know left in the cracks. When you kind of have
these teachers, that's why I'm saying once again the teachers need to be empowered.
If that means paying them a little more so they stick around and not floating from
school to school for their check, the paycheck, because that's what basically I
think it is and the teachers are floating, that's why the turn
around and retention is hard because they're floating around from school to
school chasing a paycheck and not educating our kids. Right, there are too
many, a lot more teachers that are highly qualified in the higher paying
schools (right) so yeah paying all teachers at all schools better.
Better, or maybe just across the board maybe if you have everybody makes the
same. No matter if you go to La Cueva or you go to Del Norte or West Mesa or Rio
Grande. Let's go deep, Rio Grande. This should be across the board. It shouldn't
be just an economic kind of thing since you live up north you get to get paid more,
or charter schools, I don't know if the charter schools pay more or not but maybe that's why...
They do, yes. And maybe that's why you get a lot of, everybody's going to charter
schools but. You know, you have such an interesting perspective because you're
also you know working with youth and you know so you probably hear stories about
what's going on at schools from those perspectives as well? Mm-hmm. So (yeah) we might
need to get back together and get that perspective. That's fine, yeah that'd be cool.
Yeah I'm started starting to get more information from student perspective
about you know them going through the school system and (mm-hm) you know being
able to look back and say this was something that I struggled with and...Yeah
and I see a lot especially in the high school where, since I do work with a lot high school
kids, it's a lot of IEPs out there. And for, and I'm like looking I'm like
for what? And but in some instances the IEP does work for some kids. I had a
co-worker whose daughter who actually was maybe an A-B student but was on an IEP
through here whole high school career, so it helps. And it's really not...When it's done
right and when it's done right I guess it does (yes). When it's done right or done
for the right reasons, ah-that's the word, right reasons. If it's done for the right reasons and not to
try to minimize a kid or try to get them to go someplace else or something like
that, the way I felt, then I think it does work. Right. Well Gary thank you so much
for coming and talking to me and you know I really appreciate you being
willing to put yourself out there and share your experience with parents and
educators and really the public so that we can be more aware of what's going on
and hopefully parents will be able to advocate more for their own children and
we can change some things here in the system.
Great. So, thank you. You're welcome. I appreciate it.
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