awesome I think we are there hold on I'm just gonna check them there we go Oh
Viv we are live Viv Groskop thanks for being here okay so just to check in like
it is what's just after four o'clock your local time
yeah it's 20 past 4 in London and I've just done the school run Oh just done
the you know professional childcare thing of putting my children in front of
the television Friday is the day when I do school stuff yeah okay well I'm just gonna say
we're talking about haters and critics today and I can just imagine how all the
other school moms hate you if that's the way you look when you pick up your children
well you know it's not difficult to wear a statement earring oh and you do it so brilliantly I love it I
love it okay I I get the pleasure viv of so we
are zooming our live here into the Facebook group so for anybody that has
not had the honor and privilege of coming in contact with the incredible
Viv Groskop I just gotta like lay it all out for people they get how
incredible this opportunity is Viv you are a writer a stand-up comedian TV and
radio presenter your third book how to own the room women and the art of
brilliant speaking just came out this month November and I hear there's talk
of a Canadian book deal so we're all like crossing our fingers and hopeful yes
awesome I know that you're the podcast of the same name how to own the room
really is an opportunity to showcase some powerhouse women where you
interview their experience of owning the room and it became I think what top 20
in the first two weeks of its release yeah on iTunes yeah amazing and not
only that but you I know are also a veteran performer at four Edinburgh fringe
shows you front two other popular podcasts you have
presented on BBC Radio 4's front row and you appear regularly on the BBC ones
this week haha where do you find the time yeah well
you've got to stay busy right I mean I've had a freelance career for 17 years
now yeah and I've done what they call
portfolio career or as they call it now multi hyphenate you know I've done that since
before the internet was invented so I've always juggled a lot of different
priorities and ideas and I just have the luxury of going where my passion takes
me pretty much well it's a beautiful it's a beautiful thing to watch
and I am grateful that we've been able to get to know each other over the last
period of time but really what I'm excited about today in particular is
talking about this conversation that I see so much in our you know our
community and online in these powerful women being defeated or minimized when
we encounter critics haters naysayers the Debbie downers and it's a
conversation that I'm loved I'm really excited about diving in with you Viv because
you know by virtue of what you do and the career that you have I mean you are
on the front lines you are in the spotlight when it comes to being visible
and so I think you are such a you are the perfect person to talk about how to
deal with haters and critics because you encounter this you put yourself in that
position or the potential for that every day as a writer podcaster performer
radio host you name it I mean you are one of the most visible
people I know and so I'm dying to know you know as we get into this
conversation how you handle that what's the evolution been for you and really
what is what is some advice that you can give other women who are watching our
interview that are up to big things growing their business maybe leading an
empire whether it's their own entrepreneurial venture or inside of
corporation you know there's so much activity that we do on social media and
the more visible we become the more attention we get and not
all of that attention is going to be possible so I'm dying to know how you
can you know what advice you can give us a new your journey well for me the most
important thing about this topic is when people talk about this and often it is
women who are particularly worried about this because women do get scrutinized
more than men let's let's admit it you know it's just a fact people often worry
about this in advance of it happening so they're not necessarily talking about
things have actually happened it's all things that are in their imagination and
I know from doing the work around the book how to own the room I'm doing
a lot of public events about that at the moment and I let people ask as many
questions as they want in the events and dealing with the potential for rejection
or what somebody called in one of the events that I did and this lovely young
woman said Oh viv what I'm most worried about with public speaking is how do you
deal with the disapproving looks from the audience and this is really what
we're talking about is some sort of metaphorical representation of
disapproving looks and I think for a lot of us it stems back to childhood that
we've received all kinds of disapproval or perceived disapproval for our whole
lives and we don't particularly want to cause it and I think when some people
want to expand their business or they want to become more visible they're
seeking more PR or they want to be a bit bolder or experimental in their social
media the first thing they worry about is what's the disapproval going to look
like how am i going to cope with it and they get so caught up in imagining what
all that's going to be like that they don't even do the things that they plan
to do and so they never actually get any haters because they never do anything
that's worth hating Wow so before they even get out on stage whatever that
stage looks like for them they're already sunk yeah absolutely and I think
we have incredible reserves of creativity in imagination for dreaming
up all the scenarios for this and I just call it trolling yourself it's
basically trolling yourself before anyone else can troll you and it's
crazy and I feel so strongly about this because it I was going to say it
destroyed life but it destroyed my creativity and it destroyed my my drive
for years you know I've always been a writer and that's putting yourself out
there a bit but I was always downgrading my ambition and downplaying my dreams
not doing the things I really wanted to do because I had such a fertile
imagination about what the response of the haters would be that it drowned out
all of my own thoughts of oh but I would quite like to do this I would quite like to
perform on stage and then there just be a gremlin saying no but people would hate
you and that's very strong in a lot of us and yeah I got to a point in my
really mid to late 30s I'm 45 now where I had two of my children and the third
was on the way and as my children getting older I was always saying to
them you must do what you want with your life you must follow your bliss you must
follow your dreams Oprah says it's all good and then I just was always thinking
but you haven't done it you haven't done it because you're scared and it was
seeing that hypocrisy it was revealed to me through my own children
that forced me out there because I couldn't bear to live with the hypocrisy
of it any longer I I was more scared of that than I was of the haters so I got
out there and I started to do comedy and it's led to all these other things and
now I'm on the other side of it I know what it's like to actually have
experienced the haters so the real haters I've had you
know two star reviews perhaps even worse than a two-star review is getting three
star review because that's mediocrity I've had you know people complaining
about my work I haven't literally had anybody ask for their
money back but I've had people post online saying I wish I'd asked for my
money back I mean you get all of that and then the thing you don't think about
is the flip side of that as well which is when you get five-star reviews and
you get people wanting to come up and have their photograph taken with you
because they've seen you on a TV program which you haven't actually been on and
all this kind of weirdness of semi really small scale even fandom is
quite stressful so you have to navigate all of these things and for me it's all
to do with ego and where your egos sitting and when you're trying to hide
from the haters you're trying to protect your ego and when you're feeling strange
around the whole five-star amazingamazing that's your ego feeling
like oh I don't want to get too puffed up you know so it's balancing those
things but it's such a common thing and finding with the response to this book
of people not even people giving presentations at work or doing
interviews or asking for a promotion asking for pay raise all kinds of things
they don't say what they really want they don't reveal the true extent of
their passion or their ambition because they're scared of disapproval yes
interesting now given your you know when you flip the switch and realize that it
was worse to live with the hypocrisy than it was to actually encounter real
haters not just the gremlin in your mind tell me about what it was actually what
I really want to ask I'm just gonna ask it is I want to know what is the worst
bit of real criticism you have ever encountered and what was that like
because and I'm gonna ask that because I know the women who are watching as you
said we have such incredible creativity of dreaming up how bad it's gonna be and
I want to know what is the reality has what is the worst reality been like I
know I have I've got my own story and I think you know by sharing it we we aren't
tortured by it so let's share ready well two things spring to mind for me one
is a face-to-face reaction and the other was a review and in both cases they were
horrific in the moment but they led to really positive outcomes so that's the
really other thing the really interesting thing that I've learned is
that often a response you think is negative further down the line might
lead to some incredible insight and you never quite know what any feedback has
gonna turn into so one thing that really springs to mind is is a thing that absolutely
broke my heart when I was I was doing a gig for about 150 people for my this is
my first proper Edinburgh show which was called say sorry to the lady and it was
all about apology which is with hindsight it's a terrible thing for a
comedy show although it's quite British I suppose but it was just me apologizing
for everything so I thought this was really funny but it's really hard to
pull off and I had this show for 150 people it was a very mixed mixed bag of an
audience and I knew that I had some of them on board and some of not on board
it was half way through me workshopping the show the show wasn't finished and I
knew there were some people who were really hating it it's an hour-long show
but you have to workshop it to make it work so that like in a month's
time it is gonna be really good and those gigs are really hard and at the
end this man just came up to me and said like right up in my face it didn't work
and just walked off and he was so angry and aggressive but the worst thing was
that I knew he was right that it hadn't worked and it wasn't that good and I
went to bed that night crying because I was so upset and I wake up the next
morning and I was still crying yeah but I then had to go back to the same place
the next day to do another event because it was a festival and I bumped into this
guy he was the festival photographer and he said he stopped me and he said I saw
your show yesterday and I think it's one of the best things I've ever seen it was
amazing and then I was just like and that made me realize it's so subjective
and what he'd enjoyed about the show was that it was really brave and
experimental I didn't really care much if it all worked or it didn't and he
just really enjoyed the process of it and the the abandon that I had when I
was doing it and he was on board whereas this other guy wasn't and that's that's
how it goes and that really really taught me of you know don't listen to
the most negative person in the room don't listen to the most positive person
in the room but don't listen to the most negative person like neither of them
are right and actually I had the right instinct which was that it hadn't really
worked and I'd learnt loads from it and I went on and did another the next show
and it was much better yeah so that was a face to face I want to slow
down because what you've said is is brilliant in that and I don't want
anyone to step over that there's three things that spring to mind from that
Story number one is that whether it's whether it's praise or
criticism we have to unhook from both of those we can't let just as as
much as we let a criticism defeat us we have to also unhook from being inflated
by absolutely by the flowery compliments right totally the second thing I heard
you say was that it is more it is less about the individual and it's more about
it's an opportunity to really ask yourself what of this comment whether
it's praise or criticism is true for me and in your case you knew that there
were elements that weren't working there was area for improvement
it was a bold step so the fact and and I think that's one of the biggest insights
here is the criticism that is most gutting to us is what we truly believe
as well right yeah you knew there were elements of the show
that were risky and it wasn't complete or it wasn't polished and for someone to
point it out it's like oh my god yes they see through me that's what guts us
is when we share or believe the same thing as that piece of criticism yeah
100% opportunity to do the work yeah yeah was there a third thing I think
there was but my mind is like suddenly down the track I've lost it yeah the
other instance that springs to mind was a review that was just so brutal and it
was for the show that I did the next year I did a show called be more Margo
oh no hang on no sorry I'm getting this the wrong way around so that same show I was
talking about say sorry to the lady I did that show
Edinburgh and I got this review okay the reviewer said I'm sure Viv Groskop is
very funny at her own dinner parties or at the tennis club but she is not a
stand-up comedian I mean that is the most brutal thing ever and obviously
that was gutting gutting review to read because I was about two or three years
into doing comedy I was starting to get booked professionally people are paying
you to perform and you've had a review saying that you're not a stand-up
comedian you know can you imagine it you know somebody says well Heather Petherick
seems like a very nice person but she's not a coach right it was an actual sort
of you are not actually the thing that you say you are and it was so painful
but I spent a long time analyzing that comment and where it was coming from so
I'm sure Viv Groskop is very funny at hero own dinner parties or at the
tennis club and part of me was thinking oh this person thinks I can play tennis
which made me laugh because I've never belonged to a tennis club and I never
would but another part of me found it fascinating because it was a remark
about class yes this person thinks I'm the sort of person who belongs to a
tennis club and has dinner parties and why do they think that and is that right
yes and I took that question and I made another show about it the following year
Wow which opened with that review saying you know I got this review and that's
why I decided to write this show and the other show was about class and it was
called be more Margo and it was examining my mother's roots my mother's
very working-class she left school when she was 15 she came over from Northern
Ireland she'd have very pronounced Northern Irish accent she completely
ironed it out so that she could speak properly English middle-class English so
in some way that class story and faking your class is it's my personal story and
it's also it resonates for a lot of people in the UK and the year that I did
that show was the year of brexit which is also a lot to do with class yes it
was like full of really interesting things and that that's the best show
that I've done it's the most personal show that I've done and it's the best
show that I've done and I would never have thought about it I would have never
even have particularly noticed that if that person hadn't have written that
really bitchy horrible review what strikes me there viv is how there is the
potential whether it's praise or criticism there is something to be
learned in that and the maturity it takes to take a hurtful comment like
that and look for what is the truth of this where is this coming from what is
it about and turning that into fodder fuel for your growth is amazing yeah and
the vulnerability of saying this is what it's about for me and sharing that
vulnerability in your next show Wow yeah but is it also is always
informative as well because that comment helped me to think Oh am i appealing to
the right audience because I don't want to be trying to appeal to an audience
who finds me annoying you know so these things are very informative because we
can't all please everybody we are going to have audiences who are totally the
wrong audience for us and we need to know who they are so that we're not
putting ourselves in their face you need to be putting yourself in the face of
the person who is gonna fall in love with you yeah you know or is gonna get
something out of this or be challenged in a good way so you know these things
are painful and and sometimes I don't agree with taking all criticism onboard
I think sometimes these things can just be ignored but I think you know in your
gut whether something is relevant and helpful and you just need a little bit
of time to process the pain and get past the after the initial shock and then look
more closely at it one of the things that I think you've inspired that I
forgot earlier that I want to pin here is I don't know who said it Viv but this
keeps ringing in my ears is that saying that says if you're not pissing somebody
off you're also not making any fans yes exactly and then in that way when we get
either flowery praise or gutting criticism it is a natural outcome of
pointing the way of speaking up of being visible and that is a good thing if
we're truly seeking to make an impact as it gets absolutely I mean I'm sure
you've said something like this before Heather because you're very wise on this
topic but most people don't want to buy vanilla no but you can make organic
vanilla maybe you make a virtue of being the best vanilla but in general most
people would like you know the pistachio and cashew nut hybrid weirdo thing that
is very specific so the more you can find the thing that only you could do
the more attractive that's going to be to people and it can be I you know I've
had to learn the hard way that it can be hard to lean into that thing yeah and
you know it really helps me as well all the people that I've worked alongside
who you know I've seen comedians who like the first Edinburgh show that they
did they would collect you know 11 2 star reviews and no other reviews and
then like five years down the line they're selling out and that everything
is five-star and they're on television Wow so it's you know you you just have
to have the courage of your convictions exactly so how do you personally now
handle both the criticism and the praise how do you stay in the middle and keep
moving forward I veer between monitoring it all a little bit myself
and sometimes having a process so for example if I'm doing a show over in
Edinburgh that's a whole month I have a PR he's helping me out with the show and
trying to jump on opportunities or shape a particular idea or capitalise on
certain things and that person will be also monitoring the reviews
for me because it's not healthy for me to be doing a show every day and reading
every single thing that people are saying about it and often now that I'm a
few years in I've got enough people I can go to you for constructive criticism
who I know will tell me what I need to know I don't really need to seek out
that feedback anymore okay but otherwise so for example at the
moment my book is on Amazon and I need to solicit reviews and my podcast is on
iTunes and I need those reviews so I will actively appeal to people for
reviews and I will often say please give me a warts-and-all
review I don't you know that algorithm this is another thing I think most people
don't realize online the algorithm doesn't really care whether your review
is good or bad it cares about engagement so it would be better to have a ton of
bad reviews than one really good review yeah some of the algorithms work
differently but mostly and publishers want to see this all kinds of people
want to see engagement that's the thing that people care about the most so I
will read those for a certain or I kind of half look at them sometimes or sometimes
I get my husband or somebody to read them for me and I I don't want to get
too caught up in that yeah because you you start to if you read the praise then
you think oh I need to do more of that and maybe you don't need to do more of
that you need to work out for yourself what it is you need to do more
of yes again always looking back at what's true for you what do you know to
be true and what's just rubbish yeah did you see I use that UK term rubbish
that was just for you it's very normal to me awesome okay so as we're
as we're wrapping up I want to know what is you know for any of the women who are
watching this interview what advice would you give them as they are taking
taking the risk to become more visible whether whether it's writing on social
media whether it's sharing something in a presentation whether it's asking for
what they need in their job what advice do you give them about handling this
criticism or praise you are your own worst critic and you're wasting way too
much time listening to that critic so turn dial down your own criticism
for a start and when you're thinking about what other people's responses will
be to your work whether it's a new product a blog post an Instagram story
please believe me from bitter experience but that their main reaction will be
total and utter indifference most of the time they will not even notice that you
did it and this is what makes me incredibly sad about so many people who
are holding themselves back from putting themselves out there and trying new
things is that like 90% of what you put out there gets completely ignored you
know I've been a journalist for 25 years I've written hundreds of thousands of
words there's maybe a dozen articles that I've had in those 25 years I've had any
significant cut throat Wow you know in comedy I've done you know hundreds and
hundreds of hours and there's maybe one or two things I've done that people have
picked up on and and have really captured people's imagination like it's
not it's really not that easy to capture people's imagination and you have to put
so much stuff out there and most of its going to be ignored and I think if
people realize that their stuff is far more likely to be ignored than to be
criticized they might just get on and do the work
yeah just start making the impact you're meant to make yes stop psyching yourself
out and worrying about the what-ifs just do it exactly and the more you do all of the work
the better it will be anyway and the more secure you will be in putting it
out there so that if and when you do get negative criticism you it will be like
water off a duck's back because this is just what you do yeah warts and all
warts and all Nanny McPhee style I love what you're saying Viv you know
and I I would completely echo that sentiment that I think so often as women
we are we think that we need to wait to be perfect or that we need to be so
buttoned up because we're we're expecting
we're expecting critics and haters and naysayers to be you know at the ready
ready to beat us back but people are waging their own battles right they
are far more interested in their own you know productivity and their own outcomes
then they are ready to you know light the torches I also think this is a
generational thing I think for women maybe over thirty-five or maybe a bit
older than that they are not so willing to say hey you know I'm 200
pounds and here's me in a bikini which there are loads of women who are 21 who
have got millions of followers on Instagram because they're embracing that
yeah there's there's a realness to showing your flaws and your
imperfections that actually a lot of people are monetizing yes
there's a whole and there's also a whole kind of hate follow own industry like if you
really want to cultivate haters you can make a lot of money there's really
interesting new trends that are coming out now as a result of all the ways you
can make yourself visible and by wanting to subscribe to that old-school
mentality of oh you've got to be TV ready and you've got to be look like
you've had every photograph taken by a professional and that's that's just
really old fashioned now and people much prefer something that looks more raw
that's imperfect it it actually connects with people a lot better yeah it
resonates much more deeply and creates more fans and followers yeah absolutely
I love it well I absolutely adore what you've said viv and I know how busy you
are so I am so grateful that you were able to give us some of your time today
on a Friday afternoon thank you for having me Heather love it continue to be
a raving fan of yours because you are never vanilla my dear my that's true and I'm
so quite baffled how anyone could say anything negative about you because you
are just so Vivalicious thank you so much for sharing your story your experiences
and your advice today to help other women in our community as they are wanting to
own the room in their own lives thank you so much for being here today Viv
where can ladies get more from you Well come to my Instagram at viv groskop
or my twitter or facebook Viv Groskop comedian where else
or check me out on Amazon I'm hoping my Canadian deal is going to come through
you can order it on import from the UK yes own the room we will do that love it
alright can't wait to see more from you viv thank you so much
alright you too bye bye
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