BG: Here we are, today in Verona for the precongress workshop day,
BG: we are on the eve of the SITCC Congress, the Italian Society of Behavioral and Cognitive Therapy,
BG: and we have the pleasure to have special guests with us: Raffaele Popolo e Giancarlo Dimaggio,
BG: psychiatrists, psychotherapists, SITCC teachers
BG: and founders of the Metacognitive Interpersonal therapy Center in Rome. Welcome!
RP / GD: thanks, thanks, hi! BG: thank you for accepting our interview!
BG: Let's start our discussion, starting with the first question:
BG: Can you briefly introduce your approach, the Metacognitive Interpersonal Therapy (MIT)?
GD: The characteristic features, in a nutshell, are, on one hand
GD: the attention to regulate the intervention on the patients level of ability, during the whole decision procedure,
GD: to describe their mental state and use them in order to reduce suffering and get more adaptive interpersonal relationships.
GD: so the therapist constantly tries to notice the amount of
GD: mentalistic information that the patient is able to represent to himself and to the therapist
GD: and then tries to promote the intervention in the "proximal development therapeutic zone",
GD: the patient can't describe properly the emotion, and the therapist knows, with all the due respect for his own need for efficacy,
GD: that the aim of his intervention is to improve the patient's access to emotions
GD: and if he succeeds, he is satisfied, even if the patient, obviously, is still suffering somehow,
GD: still has many problems somehow, but we're doing what is possible, at that time.
GD: The other characteristic element of TMI is a constant attention to the interpersonal dimension, in many ways
GD: on one hand, in our opinion, there is the decisive role of the so-called "interpersonal schemas",
GD: which are those structures, settled in the course of development, probably also based on the temperament,
GD: with which people move in connection with others, lead by their goals
GD: and form a predictions system on the relational destiny of their goals,
GD: An easy example: I wish to be appreciated
GD: I have a nuclear inner idea of poor worth...
GD: I'd like to be appreciated, but deep down I doubt my worth,
GD: on the other side, I hope I worth.
GD: This kind of push, the need to be appreciated, necessarily addresses the other people,
GD: bacause it's a relational push, one of the so-called "Interpersonal Motivational Systems",
during the Workshop Raffaele and me will talk extensively about it.
GD: So, I make a series of predictions on the other person's reaction.
GD: The Interpersonal Schema is an implicit "relational test", and it's continuously in action.
GD: I wish this (to be appreciated); I've got these floating ideas on myself;
GD: let's see what will be other's person response. The one that I'm looking for, so appreciation?
GD: And this will bring my inner positive nuclear image out,
GD: otherwise it will confirm what the patient fear, that he worth anything!
GD: These are the previsional structures, that indicates us how things will proceed.
GD: Those are information selection structures: what are the relevant elements in the environment?
GD: Let me see if there are faces expressing a judgement on me.
GD: We're talking about decoding structures: let's see what that person is thinking about me, right?
GD: Right now, as I'm talking to you, Raffaele is concerned? Critic? Amused?
GD: to my mind he is concerned...!
RP: No, I'm not amused! GD: He's not amused, wrong reading...
RP: I'm focused! GD: He's focused on what I'm currently saying!
GD: I'm worried about the idea that he will highlight any faults...! RP: I'd like to get you worried... but I'm not capable!
GD: In my opinion you're really capable instead!
RP: Absolutely! This is his own schema!
GD: You're right! This is the "relational test" in action!
GD: So it (the schema) has whole a series of functions.
GD: Then, obviously, the interpersonal schemas, shape the real relationships!
GD: for example, keep on joking a bit among us,
GD: if I really had "fear of judgement" schema, that being in front of the camera, that would be possible, somehow...
GD ... and build Raffaele as "critical, severe, judgmental"
GD: I'd start feeling a little tense, worried... Raffaele would notice my worry, and he might get alarmed...
GD: I would start thinking: "Oh, I'm disappointing him! I'm damaging the outcome of the interview!"
RP: I could take your place answering the questions! GD: ... and this would make me feel totally worthless!
GD: And we would find in a so-called "interpersonal cycle".
GD: And this is essential in the therapist interaction.
GD: One thing we always notice, because it is one of the most important risks of therapeutic error,
GD: it is necessary to distinguish the "interpersonal scheme", which is an internal structure of the person,
GD: and the "interpersonal cycle" which is something that happens in the process.
GD: the interpersonal scheme is the true goal of treatment. The interpersonal cycle has an impact on the therapeutic relationship,
GD: but becomes an object of therapeutic intervention in a second time.
GD: Because communicating to the patient "Well, after all, the bad things that happen in your life,
GD: that lead you to feel that your goals are not realized and achievable ... in the end is your fault!"
GD: it means putting a big slab of cement on a person that was already with "one foot in the grave"!
GD: We consider it a quite serious therapeutic mistake, in our MIT formulation.
GD: These are two fundamental characteristics of MIT. There is a third one, which we did not add in the name,
GD: because Metacognitive Interpersonal Therapy is already disproportionately long!
GD: If we had also added "Experiential", I think our courses and books would be the least followed and sold in the psychotherapy history!
GD: But in fact it is an experiential therapy! And this will be clearly described in the next book
GD: out in a few months for Raffaello Cortina, "Body, Imagination and Change".
GD: When we're going to rescript people's lives, to rescript their world map,
GD: we don't do it simply on a cognitive level,
GD: it is not a therapy mainly based on semantic, conscious, logical deductive reasoning,
GD: I mean, it's still a very important component,
GD: but we want people to experience their schema once again during the session
GD: and start trying to alter it.
GD: Then we reflect together with the patient with a rigorous, precise, conscious, organized formulation,
GD: on the type of process that happened, however it's a kind of intervention
GD: which aims at procedural rescripting , even before the cognitive one.
RP: I was thinking that working on the schema is useful,
RP: also to show how is strict, how is written in the patient's own experience,
RP: you said procedural, almost corporeal, GD: almost corporeal, sure
RP: and the idea is to enrich relationships and the ability to cope with situations,
RP: with new schemas, that have never been explored or considered,
RP: for example in group based metacognitive therapy this is one of the strategic objectives,
RP: because, let's imagine working on interpersonal schemas,
RP: we're not only trying to show the person, the patient,
RP: how much this is pervasive in his experience,
RP: but we show the group, that there are also other ways to cope with that situation,
RP: that they, procedurally, were used deal always in a certain way.
GD: This is indeed just another feature, non-distinctive, but nuclear,
GD: a sort of philosophy underlying MIT, which is a therapy that aims mainly to promote health,
GD: creativity, innovation, rather than the dismantle the pathology,
GD: we constantly try to bring patients towards the expansion of the repertoire,
GD: towards the idea that their desires are somehow achievable,
GD: that does not mean that we want to make them realize in reality,
GD: it is really a rescripting of the idea that they know there's hope.
GD: While we're doing it, pushing them constantly in that direction, we dismantle the obstacles, which form psychopathology.
BG: What are the group MIT protocol (MIT-G) main characteristics?
BG: In relation to individual therapy, what is the added value that MIT-G can bring?
RP: Regarding the MIT-G protocol
RP: it may be important to define the context and the way it was born, that is, within the health public services.
RP: It has been validated within the Modena health public service,
RP: where it has been applied by supervised operators working in the service.
RP: It comes from the idea of finding an effective and efficient way,
RP: to face all the work that Giancarlo told us before,
RP: that is to be able to enrich the patients scenarios, the coping relational modalities in different situations,
RP: but also to improve and promote the metacognitive functioning,
RP: the word, "metacognitive", is the first of our approach (MIT),
RP: that capacity that allows, as Giancarlo said before,
RP: to recognize the emotions that lead us, etc.
RP: it is a protocol that allows to give a help to more people,
RP: without any limit in the theoretical assumptions,
RP: therefore taking advantage of the group setting, not only because it helps saving money,
RP: but because it gives opportunities that could accelerate
RP: the strategies learning and the functions training
RP: and therefore it suites especially young patients,
RP: in the Modena group therapy experience, the patients were all from 16 to 25 years old,
RP: young patients in whom procedural memory has already been structured,
RP: but where memory hasn't get "chronic", concretized yet etc ...
RP: And then the group allows us not only to train the functions, but through interaction and discussion,
RP: to be able to improve the understanding of the other,
RP: as we will explain in the new book that will be released in March 2019,
RP: where we will describe how these group strategies can be used not only in young patients,
RP: but also, and this is the added value, in the individual setting,
RP: when an arrest may occur and the therapy could be stuck,
RP: where the patient, with the usual cognitive techniques, has difficulty in breaking some schemas,
RP: we will also use imaginative techniques, which Dimaggio will describe exhaustively during this Congress.
RP: A cost-effective strategy can be the one we use in the MIT-G,
RP: that is an experiential role playing.
GD: The idea of the MIT-G protocol comes from the clinical theoretical developments
GD: in recent years at the Metacognitive Interpersonal Therapy Center
GD: shared with Paolo Ottavi and Giampaolo Salvatore, who are also co-authors of the next book,
GD: there is a lot of teamwork and the whole studio is an extremely active and creative group,
GD: with a beautiful cooperative relationship, as well as friendship and hang out having beers in the evening ...!
GD: Basically we have always had a maniacal attention to the formulation, so the intervention must be targeted there,
GD: without attention to urgency, unless the patient is in danger, "seated on the ledge",
GD: at that moment the most correct intervention has to be that, because it goes to "dismantle".
GD: Over the years, also supported by some first empirical results on small individual therapy efficacy studies,
GD: we were wondering "How much can we affect? How much can we speed up the treatment?"
GD: Because we are constantly trying to improve, to adjust it
GD: and then the experiential turning point has gone in that direction, considering which tools make the change more effective.
GD: Regarding the group protocol, when we made the first formulations, Raffaele and I highlighted some points:
GD: first, that the theory of Interpersonal Motivational Systems by Liotti, Lichtenberg, Paul Gilbert, Panksepp,
GD: that obviously is really useful to us to conceptualize the patient, could be taught to patients
GD: to get them to know what are, in our clinical opinions, the reasons of their suffering and of their actions and copings.
GD: The psychoeducational part that is fundamental in the MIT-G, derives from these motivations.
GD: If explain to patients how they work, based on the theories that obviously shape our intervention,
GD: do we help them to cope with their daily life struggles, don't we?
GD: And this is the first point... then there's the second, the role play component, right?
GD: With the idea that, even in 16 sessions, we could give a certain type of knowledge
GD: and, a fundamental point for us, let them re-experiment, then: motivational system,
GD: sexuality attachment, cooperation, exploration, autonomy;
GD: narrative episode; role-playing aimed at understanding the functioning, the schemas and expanding the mental states reading,
GD: so this has been the MIT-G project.
RP: The psychoeducational part, where motivational systems are explained,
RP: it also becomes a part of assimilation learning,
RP: because it is true that in cognitive therapy, but now also in psychiatry, with bipolar patients for example,
RP: there is a lot of psychoeducation activity, because the idea is that we can teach,
RP: but we start the teaching from the experience lived during in session,
RP: we show videos, and then ask the patients comments and feelings, so they not only watch what we theoretically explained to them,
RP: but they feel it, memories are activated, as Giancarlo would say, autobiographical memories, and so on
RP: so the learning is really rooted in the experience of the participants.
RP: then moves the second part, which is an experiential part instead,
RP: where the role playing could help those patients, who have difficulty to access to whole their experience during the individual therapy,
RP: in this group setting experiential part, they can do it easily. GD: absolutely
GD: It was not the immediate reason for creating this protocol, but it was important,
GD: that is the need for data of effectiveness. It was the moment to understand, "Do MIT works?"
GD: You need to document it because you move in an international field that asks for it,
GD: if you don't have data of effectiveness you can also be nice and pretty, but you're going to collide with "giants",
GD: that can be DBT, Schema Therapy, mentalization, transfert therapy, that have strong data of effectiveness,
GD: Raffaele was great, because he managed, in Modena, to do a randomized pilot trial, that we have already published,
GD: which is a huge goal for us, considering that the group that had TMI-G had good outcomes,
GD: we had good data, only 2/10 patients drop outs, which is not bad,
GD: besides the first group has been lead by quite young therapists, not experienced TMI trainers.
GD: We had excellent results in terms of symptomatic reduction, functioning, increasing, metacognition improvement
GD: another satisfaction from the work we are doing,
GD: is that Raffaele is now leading a second trial based on power analysis,
GD: to confirm the outcomes of the first trial and discover
GD: how many patients do we have to recruit to get more solid outcomes.
GD: And actually the first trial was so good, in terms of effectiveness, that for the second one, 20 + 20 patients were enough to have a powerful enough one,
GD: and so we've already done half of it, so I think we'll have to complete the second half within 7-8 months.
GD: Another great outcome, is that we're working not only in Italy, but
GD: we have created something that has aroused interest abroad, and this is not so common.
GD: At the moment our approach is used in Spain
GD: and we already have the results of a first pilot group with 10 patients, and again a single drop out of 10.
GD: We have also included patients with borderline personality disorder, adding a small module on emotional regulation in the original protocol,
GD: and we have already done the calculations and the results are excellent.
GD: It is used in various public units in Norway. There we have preliminary data on 16, 0 drop-out patients,
GD: we are talking about an approach that patients "bear" and we are talking about patients with personality disorder,
GD: imagine the personality disorders of the Spaniards, those of the Italians, all the 16 Norwegian patients are avoiding personality disorder,
GD: which is not the category of people enthusiastic about staying in a therapeutic relationship,
GD: therefore keep 16 of them for the entire duration of the group, with good outcome results,
GD: Now we are doing the calculations with the colleagues in Oslo ... well .. no?
GD: Raffaele has collected two other groups, which we are going to publish soon. How many drop outs have we there as well? 2 out of 17?
RP: 2 GD: 2 out of 17
GD: However, treatment adherence is 90% all inclusive
GD: that in the field of personality disorders start to be interesting data,
GD: in the presence of anyway good outcomes, on the different variables we have measured.
RP: How well it has been accepted within the service.
RP: Initially Daniela Rebecchi, who was the head physician of the service and is now retired, has made possible the beginning
RP: however, despite she is retiring, the service is still proposes and offers itself for the future
RP: The new manager Brunello intends to continue applying the group,
RP: there has been, from the clinical point of view, that then are the things that interest us too ... we are also interested in effectiveness studies!
RP: There was a good response from the patients, but also from the therapists. GD: Yes
BG: Very interesting both the combination of research, private and public, and the openness and good response of patients,
BG: it bodes well for a more extensive application GD: of course
BG: Which types of patients do you consider group protocol application to be more effective with? (TMI-G)
BG: Are there patients for whom, on the other hand, the group could be premature or not indicated?
RP: In the experience of Modena we did not include patients who had significant dysregulation traits.
RP: I'm happy about the data coming from Spain.
RP: We did not include them because, in order to include a patient with problems of dysregulation, impulsive acts, etc.
RP: I have to be sure that the group-leaders "hold up" well,
RP: we have manualized everything, including also how to manage emergencies within the group,
RP: also regarding the number of absences.
RP: Being a limited-time and closed group, predicting an excessive number of absences could invalidate the job,
RP: because one loses all the part of psychoeducation
RP: So the patients that can have instability, both emotional, and in establishing a good relationship and ensuring a good continuity,
RP: at the moment, I say at the moment because as we did for the individual TMI, at the time it was for the inhibited-coarctated patients, but let's see if it works ...
RP: also in this congress Salvatore will introduce us to what we do with borderline patients.
RP: However, in order to be rigorous from a methodological point of view, we have decided to limit ourselves to the category of the "inhibited",
RP: then another problematic area on which we have questioned ourselves, above all because they were young,
RP: it was the use and abuse of substances, because the idea that a boy can not use them, we see it unrealistic,
RP: a continuous use, but above all a use before coming to the session, could compromise the participation,
RP: the "access", when we have to do a role playing exercise, to the experience would be all confused ...
GD: Under the effect of cannabis !? It's pointless to access and search for mental states ...! RP: You access to something else!
RP: I do not know what one accesses under the effect of cannabis or alcohol!
RP: So we have seen this with difficulty: the use of substances and the dysregulation.
RP: We had some doubts about cognitive abilities, so when we talk about mental retardation, GD: of course
RP: I say this because in the (public) services with the concept of mental retardation,
RP: we tend to be a bit too rigid expulsive, etc., there are patients who could ...
GD: however, the cognitive abilities to understand a scheme must be there
RP: it doesn't take much that if the evaluation of the patient is below one point, that person is entrusted to another service ...
RP: You can see how the context could influence ... this is a research in the clinical reality,
RP: these were the elements ... we did not involve, because it was more addressed to personality disorders,
RP: patients who had a schizotypal personality disorder,
RP: just because it could be patients who were closer, for positive production, to the area of psychosis,
RP: and therefore be closer to another diagnosis.
GD: In addition to what Raffaele says there are two three points,
GD: one, which is not a diagnostic criterion, however, in some way, since it is fundamental that the group is dedicated
GD: to people who know they are working on their internal structures,
GD: to participate in the program there are some individual sessions and there is one of them in particular at the beginning
GD: which is for the formulation of the scheme, the person understands to have an interpersonal scheme,
GD: here, that's important because it means that it's a kind of inclusion criterion, it's a pre-ability to differentiate,
GD: to understand "Yes, my relationships are rubbish, but the way I see them can be a little revised ..."
RP: I have to say that this would be very ... desirable I do not know ... correct,
RP: actually we maintained ourselves with patients who were able to rebuild GD: the episode
RP: yes what is the "structured reformulation" GD: ah, the structured formulation!
GD: that is, they do not have to understand that it's a scheme, but they have to understand that they think and live like that,
GD: the first step
RP: maybe, in perspective one could answer what you were asking me "For whom would it be better?"
RP: if I have a patient, who is able to differentiate a little and attends the group , he can benefit from it a lot,
RP: But in terms of effectiveness, if we can include, and I must say that they were patients of this type,
RP: patients able to bring you some contribution to make a reformulation:
RP: "Look how that episode happened like that, you behaved like that ..."
RP: then, in the end, they have benefited from it.
GD: sure, and then another couple of things,
GD: because now, with my Brisbane colleague, Dave Misso, who already has a TMI training,
GD: he deals with "domestic offenders", something that also does the colleague Andrea Pasetto from Verona, whom I follow in supervision,
GD: and we are trying to apply the TMI, also to this population,
GD: that obviously,
GD: we're not talking about those who have a premeditated psychopathic trait, those are not our job,
GD: but those who have a trait of domestic violence, even verbal aggression, threats, outbursts of rage,
GD: that is driven by emotional dysregulation, we can work on him
GD: now with Dave we are thinking about adapting the TMI-G for that specific population.
GD: I say this because I refer back to the importance of the formulation,
GD: because it's not that we do not take care of the dysregulated, we do it our way,
GD: that is clear that we have a whole series of tools to promote regulation. obviously ... in this our level of originality is minimal ...
GD: but the important point, the focus of our intervention, that is where we are aiming to,
GD: always keeping in mind the formulation of the scheme, we start: "My desire ..."
GD: I always give an example of the purpose of social rank, "it is to be appreciated", a competitive goal,
GD: I hope the other person appreciates me; inside me I have two alternative representations:
GD: "valid" and "insufficient - inadequate - poor - refusable"
GD: the other, therefore, is built with two possibilities: "accept and appreciate", versus "despise and devalue".
GD: The perpetrator of domestic violence...
GD: I managed to say "perpetrator" and already this ... RP: but do not repeat it anymore ...! GD: already repeating it has generated difficulties for me...!
GD: (the perpetrator) acts violence, guided by this scheme, when it imagines or feels, perceives, reads,
GD: that the other's response, usually the partner, is confirming the negative image.
GD: this generates a psychological pain, on which the patient doesn't stop, and immediately reacts to protect himself, ok?
GD: We intervene there! Not to regulate anger, but to go and make them accountable
GD: "Here you are feeling something that yes, your partner would have elicited in 10,000 different ways, for heaven's sake, she could have also treated you badly ...
GD: but this pain belongs to your internalized vision,
GD: and here I can do something to appease you, to regulate you, to make you have another point of view ...
GD: so this is a bit of the philosophy we always follow in the formulation
GD: and let's see if we can even adapt it to groups for domestic offenders,
GD: that is a population that has a huge need, for themselves and obviously for society, to be cured, let's say.
RP: Considering that we are on video, here I was smiling, because, coincidentally,
RP: first you made an example "I start from the competitive scheme ..."
RP: I, as an example, will never do it, that of the competitive scheme ...
RP: ... but only that of exclusion-avoidance ... GD: eh, sure! RP: I wonder why !?
GD: Because you are guided by the agonistic scheme, which is that of shame! RP: Exactly!
GD: Now you do not see it, but Benjamin is smiling!
BG: We are at the last question of this very dense and very stimulating chat
that refers back a bit to the place where we are, in Verona, at the starting point of the SITCC congress,
BG: an occasion in which we can share, reason and present studies on the "state of the art" of cognitive psychotherapy in Italy and beyond,
BG: In your opinion what are the themes you think, or you hope for, about which psychotherapists and researchers will have a debate in the coming years,
BG: what would you like to hear about at the next SITCC congresses?
GD: In the Italian cognitive therapy the debate is particularly heated, from this point of view,
GD: because there are some, it seems decidedly a minority, which support the role of the all-dominant
GD: of the technique and the focus on an element of psychopathology, especially then the worry, in general,
GD: there is a really extreme attention and a rather radically putting to the background
GD: with arguments that I think are also not well founded relational and non-specific factors.
GD: this is a position, in reality the dominant position of Italian cognitivism is which is a very relational position,
GD: there is the whole school of colleagues of motivational systems, students and successors of Giovanni Liotti.
GD: The funny thing is that I was talking the other day with a very good psychoanalyst friend, who has a model
GD: developed within psychoanalysis, which is Control Mastery Theory and the colleague is Francesco Gazzillo,
GD: they are focused on a type of formulation very, very close to what we do,
GD: and give honour where honour is due, the Control Mastery Theory is born in the mid-eighties, so it's a huge source of inspiration for us,
GD: talking with Francesco, in our way that is always accompanied by pizza and "kinds of comfort",
GD: there is a very similar vision. He is a bit more for the primacy of the relational factor.
GD: I chatted with Francesco, after having eaten a very good pizza, among other things, in Rome ...
GD: now I do not explicitly advertise the place BG: we do it later ...!
GD: we say it in private and when they see the interview they can write to us "What was the name of that pizzeria ?!"
GD: ... we will reply on Facebook!
GD: Basically, I said "In my opinion, for example, an intervention such as behavioural exposure,
GD: the behavioral exploration, has a value. That is if you understand the scheme in session,
GD: for example "I realize I am guided by this need for approval" ... to remain coherent, Raffaele right?
GD: then I understand it's my idea,
GD: But I understood it, I understand that it's my idea and maybe it's not true ... maybe it's not true, maybe I have a value...
GD: however, damn it, when I go out of the therapist's room, the pattern still has some weight,
GD: and therefore my actions are conditioned. The cognitive oriented therapist, in a broad sense,
GD: Surely the TMI therapist says, "Very well, let's program a behavioural exposure exercise
GD: to understand what happens a moment before acting the coping, then to renounce the healthy purpose and to put in place protective mechanisms "
GD: In our opinion, without that kind of behavioural support for understanding the session,
GD: it is difficult for change to be structured, to persiste and remain.
GD: Francis objected, objection in reality founded and right, I agree,
GD: "Yes, however, basically, what is the patient doing?" He is keeping inside the internalized image of the therapist
GD: and this helps him to support the task. So, however, even the execution of the task has a relational value,
GD: what I totally agree with,
GD: but I remain on the subject that carrying out certain techniques, which are meditative techniques,
GD: attention allocation techniques, sensory-motor techniques, or practice of life activities of a certain time,
GD: has a value that is still unique,
GD: that is, I may have understood this to keep inside me the therapist, but if I then go home in the evening
GD: and every evening that the Lord sends to earth, I stand in front of the television,
GD: I take a beer, I see the television series, and I do not go out ...
GD: I'm not going to do a dance class, I'm not going to sign up for a painting course, so ...
GD: there are many playful and creative areas, everybody has their own
GD: I can take also my internalized therapist with me, but if I do not accomplish that action, I could not have the motor-feedback
GD: that will further implement new mental images and anchor them to the body
GD: and therefore change the procedural component of the schemes and create some new of them.
GD: We are proceeding on that interface.
RP: Therefore I expect to hear this… not him… because I don't want to hear him anymore, to be clear about it!
RP: But the possibility, which is already present, I've read also the program (of SITCC congress)
RP: the possibility to have a dialogue between approaches proposing interventions,
RP: that within a rational debate can acquire energy, value and power.
RP: To debate, as told before by Giancarlo, imaginative, sensory-motor, cognitive aspects
RP: also the worry itself, GD: Yes of course, it's very important, absolutely!
RP: Yeah it's bloody important! To debate and see how to use them within a rational method,
RP: that it must be very well… ok, I should delete "well"… but I've already said that!
RP: It must be well-defined, clear, now that's what I meant before, a clear rational method.
RP: So having an open discussion, that… not always happens...
RP: I'll surely continue with Francesco Gazzillo, at SPR congress, in two weeks, GD: It's true, right
RP: because at this point, this ability to having a discussion must be present, so I expect this from the congress
RP: and then, because of the large participation, also new contributions, in light of efficacy data,
RP: because in this way cognitivism, in Italy, it's not only having a speech, it's also talking to Brisbane people...
RP: but seeing that also in Italy there is a lot of scientific research… this is what I'm expecting. GD: Yes, absolutely
BG: We are now arriving at the end of our interview, thank you for all the information and the time you shared and dedicated to us!
GD: Benjamin also gave us a self-administred questionnaire about the level of shame that we're experiencing...
GD: from 0 to 100, I'm at 78-79… RP: … and then to me nothing at all!
[laughs] RP: Now I want to see what he is going to answers!
GD: That you're "not compliant"!
BG: We remind also that TMI Center has a website, a blog and a Facebook page,
BG: very well-stocked, active and interesting,
BG: and we hope to have new opportunities to share more of your experience and expertise… thank you!
GD: Thank you Benjamin! RP: Thank you, bye!
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