okay well I am ready to to go whenever you guys are
okay um first we would like to hear a bit about your background
and what motivated you to start Spartan Life Coach
Oh how far back should I go
I think that like a lot of my life has been pointed in this direction
due to experiences in childhood
feeling isolated feeling helpless feeling like there was no help for me or for people like me
and thinking as a child I would you know this isn't right I'd like to do something about it
and then as I grew up I think everything was sort of leading towards this point
really where I had a strong interest in
self-protection and in teaching people to be able to defend themselves
physically and psychologically
and that that led me to a long-term study of
martial arts, to work for a long time in the security industry
and it led to a longtime study of psychology
and to understand the process by which
people develop a criminal and exploitative and predatory mindset
and what can be done to tackle that
and then looking at you know what happens to the victims
you know once you've been the victim of a violent assault or some form of exploitation
what does that leave with you and what stays with you
because it was clear that there would be the experience
whatever the traumatic event was
and then in some ways it seems to kind of possess the person
it's awful that anybody should experience suffering that lasts an hour
or a year or a decade
but it's sickening that they would take that torture with them for the rest of their lives
and continue to do the work of the bad person who got the hold of them in the first place
so that's my area of interest, keeping people out of trouble
and when they have gone into trouble
helping them to recover from that as as quickly as possible
okay thank you
no problem
and the next question is I heard another youtuber mention that
she said that she thought that a lot of British men were narcissistic and
there were a higher rate compared to other cultures and societies
and in Korea I also meet a lot of narcissistic people
and I think it has to do with the cultural background and historical background
because Korea had been a target of many invasions and wars in the past
and I think it has a very big impact on that
do you think that, do you agree that a lot of British men are narcissistic
and do you think that a certain cultural or historical background could have more impact on
developing NPD in people?
So the answer to the question of our british males
more narcissistic than the baseline...
I'll I'll answer that first
first of all we need to be aware of something called
affirmation bias which is a concept in psychology
that means you're going to find what you're looking for
before I studied NPD ,
my last relationship that that got me into this
I was looking at heartbreak
I was just looking at why people can't recover from heartbreak
and my last relationship was with a girl
whose ethnicity was complex and her cultural identity was complex
she was a Chinese born Malaysian who lived most of her life in Britain in the
northwest of England
which has its own culture bound syndromes that relate to narcissism as well
and I went online and I looked for other British and white men
who had the same experience with Chinese Malaysian women
and I found them
had I been a Kazakhstan II woman looking for evidence that all Japanese men from
Osaka are narcissistic
I would have found some friends online and and found that
so we have to be very very careful
because on the internet everything is there
so whatever you're looking for you're going to find that
if you want confirmation that so-and-so from this country is worse than others
you're going to find it
this woman has probably gotten involved in a narcissistically abusive
with a British man to begin with
and then was so hurt by that
that she sought other narcissistically inclined british men to resolve that issue
and there's no shortage of them, of course
I mean there's no shortage whatsoever of narcissists in any culture
what we need to be careful of is otherizing narcissism
and saying that narcissism is not us it's the other
so it's from a different portion of time
it's from a different country
it's always been here it's it's
you know it's biblical
it's when Cain slew Abel
and before that
when Paleolithic man Ug decided that his friend had a wife that was more attractive than his
he smashed his head with a rock and took his wife and all of his favorite sticks
so that's narcissism
t's exploitation
it's my needs supersede your needs that's core
it's in all of us you know
if you're not daily monitoring yourself to check for that kind of spirit
of evil, of jealousy, of corruption
it will grow in you
it's rare that it becomes a full-blown narcissistic personality disorder
now am I saying that narcissism doesn't flourish in certain cultures more than others
No, it definitely does.
I imagine that if we went back to ancient Rome,
we would have seen narcissism quite rampant
and historically we only need to ask historians
and they can say, "Well this emperor and this guy and this senator
clearly ticked six of the nine major traits of NPD."
Donald tTump is not a new phenomenon. Not at all.
It's been around for a very long time
now what was special about Rome?
Well, what was special about Rome at that time was that it was wealthy.
Was that people had the time
because they weren't worried about being slaughtered by their enemies or eaten alive by saber-toothed Tigers
and predators in the wild
they had the time in the space and the wealth and the luxury
to become narcissistic
so what Ican say is that I've seen a confluence
between narcissistic personality disorder
and a certain type of capitalism and a certain type of consumerist culture
and that can develop not necessarily will develop but can develop
so yes it is a culture bound system
I've also seen that in certain countries where communism was very very strong
and then the level of propagandizing of the population was very strong
narcissism can very easily take root and that's not a consumer capitalist culture
it wasn't a consumer capitalist culture
but people's ego boundaries were shattered
so whether your ego boundaries are shattered by too much consumption
or by too much propaganda
it's really the ego boundaries and the trauma that are the most important things
so are there plenty of British men who are narcissistic inclined?
absolutely
and many you know African men and American men and Korean men,
just humans will be that way.
Then do you think that, uhm...
Then why do you think that people are more aware of this than in the past like in Rome?
They would have been aware of this in Rome but they would have had different words for it
there would have been aware of this in ancient Egypt they would have been aware of this in Babylonia
and in other times where civilization reached a peak
because you need the space and the time to pontificate about other people's mental states
because if we're in a war zone being bombed and
we're in a unit of ten humans trying to survive
you won't notice that guy's a narcissist or a psychopath
in fact, you'd be happy that they're a narcissist or a psychopath
because they tend to do better in those kinds of high stress environments
so he would just be your mate Bill who's really good at killing everybody
and there's your mate Mary who's really good at scavenging for food
so you need the time in the space for things to calm down
so that when you see people behaved in barbaric and greedy and violent
psychologically and emotionally violent ways
you can actually pontificate and go
damn that's not really very nice is that maybe you shouldn't do that
and then there would have been a word for it
we just , narcissism is what we call it right now,
and there is a British psychologist I'm afraid I can't remember his name,
I picked up his book just a week ago and his book is called Affluenza
and he talks about narcissism but he says that predominantly what we're facing is a
sickness and mental sickness and emotional sickness that comes with
too much affluence and a freewheeling aggressive style of heartless capitalism.
and he calls that affluenza and that might actually be a better term than
what we're all using
we all know that there's a problem and we're trying to point at the problem
well narcissistic personality disorder is defined in the
DSM-V was the closest model that we had
but new models will develop over time
there is a problem with using NPD
which is a lot of the time people are calling others narcissists and they're really not
so your model is good
but it's not pinpoint accurate
well if it's not pinpoint accurate
you're not going to get particularly good results
I really agree with that
because when I look at my mother
she used to be very narcissistic when she was younger and when she was stronger
but as she grew grows weaker she becomes more codependent
she seems more codependent than narcissistic right now
Well there's a lot of reasons why why that can happen
I mean there's you know that there's still different narcissistic strategies
So what we have tended to do is to talk about a behavior as though it is a concrete thing
where actually they're just strategies so we a lot of people still say
there's overt narcissists and there's covert narcissists
well when I was spending time with Sam Vaknin and having a lot of conversations with him
he was saying it's the same thing
the overt narcissist has the strength and the leverage to say
fuck you do do what I'm telling you to do
but if they lose that
then they'll be like oh no please do why because I really need you to and they'll use guilt-tripping
but it's the same agenda just different strategies
so the core I'm not saying your mother has or hasn't changed I don't know
but the core can remain exactly the same
which is manipulation
which is I am entitled to have you do what I want for me
but the strategies have to change people can just become more cunning over time
and yeah you said it as she's gotten weaker I think things have changed for
it so to me the only difference between an overt and a covert narcissist is the
over thinks they're amazing and they can bully the world into agreeing with them
the covert thinks that they're amazing but they can't bully the world into agreeing with them
so they need new and more subtle strategies
yeah yeah
Yes, I agree
next question is many people say that
if they knew about narcissistic abuse they would not have fallen for
their narcissistic partner in the first place
and it's the same for me
What do you think is the most effective way to raise the awareness
and could you say say the first part that question again some I'm answering it for correctly?
they think that they wouldn't have fallen for their narcissistic partner
if they knew what narcissistic abuse was
oh yeah so what's the best way of raising that awareness?
I think if you want to raise awareness of any subject
you mean to make it so it's broad scale ?
so that people won't fall for narcissists anymore.
okay well the real way to do that
and to make it so that people are impervious to that kind of thing is
you need to understand propaganda you need to understand marketing
and you need to understand how to get inside of people's heads
and you want to give them a new story
you want to give them a story that runs in everybody's head
regardless of class or intelligence or education
and I think that if we like if the government said to me
here's an infinite budget make sure that people don't fall for this
it would be through storytelling
it would be you would either it would be you may like a story at a film or a series of films or TV shows
because raising awareness by saying to people
"Hey, are you aware there's something called narcissistic abuse?"
they just switch off
They'll just go narcissistic what that sounds complicated and like sound of that
so you would really have to engage people in a way that is interesting and entertaining
and that makes them it have a conversation about it
so that they become, so that the awareness grows more naturally inside of them
and it's not an easy thing to do
because NPD cluster B personalities it's hard to understand
I got a degree in psychology and I find this really freaking hard to understand
and then you have to navigate how to defend against narcissists
well none of us agree on how to do that not really
and then you have to talk about how to recover from narcissistic abuse
well there's no literature out there
I make stuff up
and other people make stuff up that we think is going to be the thing that is going to help people to recover
we do our best
and but there are other people doing what I do some of them never they have got a degree in anything
and and they're doing it where the psychology establishment really isn't
and then you have a whole other question to ask which is why wouldn't they do that
why wouldn't they be looking to help people overcome and avoid emotional and psychological abuse?
and the answer is usually because no frickin money in it
so and how do we raise awareness as much as we can?
we need to be inventive
we need to be creative
and we need to make it interesting for the general population to get a hold of it
because all these psychological terms ,it's all a little bit highbrow and a bit confusing
so that would be the best way of raising awareness
Is that the reason why you made the documentary?
The documentary...
The idea behind the documentary was yeah to try and to try and reach more people
with something that looked good that sounded good
that sounded and looked like something you would see on the TV
and some people will sit through a YouTube video that's badly shot and has horrible sound many will not
and so that was that was certainly part of the reason was to sort of put it out there
and say this is this is real and the victims need to be aware of it
and also the therapists need to be aware of it because many are not
Okay, it's my time to throw some questions.
okay cool you throw them and I'll dodge them
um first of all I 'd like to introduce myself
nice to meet you
nice to meet ya
I am Ganghye
Hi
Hi
Glad o see you finally
i you may be i you may not know me but I kind of know you
Beacuase I saw you in Dana's Google Hangout
oh okay
yeah yeah I saw you guys talk to each other
yeah I've been blogging about narcissistic abuse since 2015
now I am more focusing on trauma and how it affects one's personality
I got to meet Soo-yon last year yeah yeah
and since then from time to time we do some collaboration
okay
okay and the question I got is that there are so many victims who are
stuck in the relationship even if they know that their partners are ,
their partners have NPD or tend to have narcissistic traits
and what advice would you like to give them
to detect the narcissistic traits? or how to deal with it when they've seen it?
you know people mostly people tend to think
that if they knew as they see this traits of narcissistic people they can
just easily get up there leave but there are some people they just know that
their partners are narcissistic but they cannot just leave and stick to them
Okay
yeah well I mean it's .. I call myself a life coach in the beginning
and but it was a slightly ironic title because
nobody can really coach you and how to live your life
and when we're talking about sovereign adults
and I don't really I don't think I've ever said in a coaching session
oh you should leave your wife oh you should leave your husband
and it's up to every individual
it's their responsibility to find that spark of will inside of them
to say either yes I don't want this anymore or
okay I'm going to live with this and I'm going to compromise
and that's very very hard that's very very tough and it's a very it's a deeply personal experience
and it's a deeply personal moment
and I have seen myself
and sat with clients
as they go through that boundary
but for people who are raised in codependent environments
it's a turbulent and traumatic whilst extremely empowering and freeing moment
it's like the moment that the little caterpillar bursts out of the shell and turns into a butterfly
it's beautiful
but it's also extremely ugly and extremely hard
so Icouldn't I couldn't say I couldn't say
because it takes tremendous bravery
the people who tend to be stuck in narcissistic relationships
usually are those who are raised in highly narcissistic environments as children
so they just think that's what love looks like
so if you say to them oh you need to get out
then what that can be interpreted inside of their heads as is "oh you need to abandon love"
now they don't think that consciously of course they're not crazy
but they feel it unconsciously because they think that that abusive person is mummy or daddy
and that's where all the love in the world lives is within that one person
it's deeply neurotic deeply deeply neurotic
and I've been there and a lot of my clients have been and are there
and and breaking free of that as be is the core
it's the core issue like how do we break free of that
but people do, you know
they hit a point where they say okay that's enough now I think I've seen enough
I think we've passed a certain boundary we've crossed that Rubicon
and I have to leave no matter what, I have to leave
the summit's because something is involved, their kids or their family
or somebody has said something or did something that was just too much for them
and it crossed an internal boundary and that was it
they left
a lot of that choosing when it is time to go is what I would call an inner boundary issue
an outer boundary is my capacity to say no to you
an inner boundary is my capacity to say no to myself
so the self is saying I really want to stay with this person and you go
no you're not you're not doing that, you're not staying with this person
that's a deeply personal thing
so my advice would be to seek to grow in emotional maturity and emotional strength
don't seek to overanalyze your relationship with this person who's narcissistically abusive
just seek to grow in strength and then one day you will be free
like that character in Old Boy who trains and then goes out and takes revenge on everybody
when he's free
and he takes revenge
but you need that initial training and preparation for the moment of freedom
so you've seen the movie Old Boy?
Yeah, I saw the original one and liked it
I sat through 15 minutes of the American one and switched it off
the other film I want to mention at this point is My Sassy Girl
the Americans ruinedt hat one
but My Sassy Girl, for people who are watching us if you've not seen it is well worth a look
and it is a good study in how a traumatically damaged personality can function
and how there is this counter dependence where the girl in question without ruining the story
wants to build an intimate contact but can't
and her counter dependence kicks off every time
and the only time she can speak with intimacy is in silence
like where the other person literally can't hear her
and and it's sad film and it will and a happy film and it'll make you cry
and then when you hear the theme song forevermore you'll do a little cry
I've never saw that movie in that way but yeah maybe I should watch it again
go back and watch it again
the next question is um let me see
this is about people who managed to end their relationship finally but still they keep going back
and they feel guilty over it
about themselves going back again and again to this abusive relationship
and so the question is how can they break the pattern and overcome the guilt and self loath?
Well, the guilt in the self-loathing is,
we shouldn't pathologize or medicalize the guilt and self-loathing
the guilt and the self-loathing is an emotion it's a feeling
and this is a course I'm working on at the moment is emotional literacy
it's getting people back in touch with their feelings
so I would say to people don't cut off the guilt and self-loathing
don't hate the guilt and self-loathing
don't feel guilty about feeling guilty about feeling guilty
don't hate yourself for hating yourself for hating yourself
so you feel guilt and you feel self-loathing that comes into your space
it's there to protect you
that's your emotion saying "dude you're fuckin up"
"you need to stop this because it's not good for you"
so don't hate don't reject the emotion, don't cut it off
ask the emotion what it's trying to tell you
it's your onboard warning system going you're about to fly into an asteroid belt please stop
this cycle, this masochistic cycle of going back,
then becomes a sadomasochistic thing as the, you know,
as the narcissist continues to inflict pain and the victim then becomes addicted to that pain
that's trauma bonding
they're addicted to the intensity of the experience, they're addicted to the adrenaline rush
they're addicted to the otherness of it
because it's not like normal life it's like stepping outside of normal life
into weird world like where frodo puts the ring on everything is a bit weird
and that can become addictive
anything that you do that is emotionally intense, painful or not becomes addictive over time
your brain and your body and your biochemical system acclimatized to that state
to the point where you can crave it
then the sadomasochistic cycle over time tips
and you become sadistic
you start to hate yourself and you start to hate the person who's putting you in that position
and eventually I don't know of any story
where the codependent didn't eventually start developing counter dependent traits
and then start punishing the narcissist for what the narcissist is doing
which is fine
but it makes about as much sense as putting your hand inside of a really hot oven, getting burned
and then kicking the oven for burning your hand
I mean you put your fucking hand in there
So don't put your hand in the oven it won't they won't get burned
so we need to understand that these things are compulsive
and they're neurotic and they're unconscious
need to have a sense of humor about it
because we're doing something that's really silly and it doesn't help
but judging ourselves and being all serious about it isn't gonna fuckin help either
and a guy that I followed for years
one of the founders of neuro linguistic programming Richard Bandler ,
is a big believer in using humor in the therapeutic space
and he said the reason why is
because when you laugh you soften the decision-making
and you actually explode the number of potential opportunities in terms of behavioral response you have
When you're serious everything locks down and then you usually only have two choices
too much seriousness is not going to help
yes we're doing something really silly now
so hee hee, that's naughty let's not do that anymore
that that's the right attitude to have approaching it
is I know that this is silly, I know it's not helping me, I know I need to stop
and why am I doing this?
so okay, we've agreed that it's silly
we've agreed to stop judging ourselves
we've agreed to acknowledge the emotions that we naturally feel
when we do something dumb like put our hand inside of an oven
okay, so all that makes sense
so there's actually nothing wrong with this up to this point
There's nothing critically wrong with us
then we have to say, well something is going on here
okay so when I'm with a client I explain to them this is unconscious
it's brainwashing from childhood
it's not your fault but it is there and it's real
and this old computer program is hijacking all of the the operating system
and it's pushing you in the wrong direction
so we should remove that malware shouldn't we
and the client will go, we should remove that malware
okay fine that's what we're going to do
what's the malware?
the malware is the teaching
so I'm going to use the word teaching, conditioning and brainwashing in the same way
it's the propagandizing of the child that this is what love looks like
this is your value, this is what love looks like
this is how we form intimate bonds with other people
attachments in the psychiatric term
and how the subject attaches to the objects in its environment
this is normal, normal
me beating you every day is normal normal
me electrocuting you every day is love, this is love ,this is love
well as a child, you're very soft, you're very open
you don't have boundaries
you can't, as a four-year-old, go
my mom's got a few issues I don't think I listen to this shit
you just go, oh okay this is the way it is and you go along with it
and by the time you're an adult
and you're put in that same situation that looks like your relationship with your mum
when you were four or your relationship with your dad when you were four
you regress back into that moment
why?
because the trauma was so bad that you stopped evolving
that part of you that is around love
is in "arrested development "
you don't have, most people I speak to, they don't have these issues at work
when their boss shouts at them at work they don't go into an emotional flashback
it's love
it's a poisoning of our capacity to form loving bonds in a way they're safe and healthy
it's poisoned, it's corrupted
it's fixable it's totally fixable
but it takes a bit of time it takes a bit of effort
and I don't know how you started that question
I've forgotten it now, I've been talking so long I've forgotten everything
what was your question?
um I think it's pretty much answered,
but the question was how can we break the pattern and overcome the guilt and self-loathing
okay, so forgive yourself you're silly hee hee
and that's okay
and I'm silly , I'm all silly
and but also we're just little kids
we're just little kids who didn't have a very nice time
and now we're trying to reach out for that safety and for that love
and we're desperate
because you've lived you know, for me that would be 40 years
for another person it could be 22 years
that's a long time in a prison of isolation that's a long long time and
you're desperate now you're really really hungry for it
so of course you're going to over attach to the first person who comes to rescue you
anybody could come and rescue you
it could be Hitler and you'd be like Oh Hitler you're so lovely thank you so much
and you'd be attached to him
and it would be a neurotic attachment that would be unreasonable
and we could relate Hitler's not very nice you know
you go, shut up I love my daddy Hitler
that's what happens in narcissistic relationships
they're stuck on this person who rationally they know is not very good
but they have to split that
and it's called a fetishist split
where you know very well that this is the way things are and yet you don't know at the same time
I'm not talking about North Korea right now
and the way people have to live in North Korea
you know very well, of course you know
but it is not allowed for you to know and so you do not know
It's magic
you know if I tell you that the emperor has clothes on even though he's stark bollock naked
you'll be like, what lovely robes he has!
and if you do it for years you'll start to see them you'll be like oh no he's totally clothed
our illustrious leader is a wonderful and brave man
so the victim ,over time, they develop a skill
because a child's primary function is to learn and develop skills of misinterpreting reality
so if you had a bad childhood and I show up and I'm a malignant emotional predator
you're primed for me you're ready to go you've been trained
Can you deny the reality in front of your eyes? yeah I'm really good at that
Can you attach to people who aren't very nice? yeah I'm really good at that
Can you believe that my abusive pattern of behavior is what love looks like ? you're like, dude I'm there!
I totally you don't even need to train me
so there isn't really that much brainwashing that I need to do
I get to take you on You're a new recruit and you're ready to go.
This meeting is supposed to last two hours so this screen might be off in ten minutes
that's the message that just oppoed up.
So when it turns off we'l just...send you another link.
Ok. Is it on a two hour limit is it?
yeah yeah
I think I think... are you subscribed to these guys are you paying these guys
No
okay I'm paying them so what I could do is I could send you a link I can record
it we can finish the interview and then I'll just send you the recording over
and then there's no time limit
Yeah, thank you.
Ok, cool awesome
the next question is um everyone says that going no contact with
the NPD is the best policy but when it's your parents especially and
they are very ill it's very hard to go to contact them and it's the same case
with me my mother has cancer and she's very sick and so even though she hurt me
a lot in the past I still feel very sad for her going through all the pain and
so what would you advise what would you advise people in such circumstances we
have to stay in contact with people like them
hold on not only one minute here
damn, boom!
so it went from ten minutes to one minute. How could they, how could they
okay I will I'll send you an invite now and then we'll jump back on
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