welcome back everybody, we're here to talk about The Subtle Knife and the
eagle-eyed amongst you will notice that Kiran and I are dressed exactly the same and
indeed in the same place as we were when discussing book one and that is because
I got so excited after reading book one that I just rattled straight into book two and
didn't even think about it and managed to read both of them in the spaces this
month that I've given myself to read book one so here we are to talk about The Subtle Knife
Here it is now I'm gonna start off actually by saying this cover
I was thinking, 'What?' when I saw this cover and now it makes perfect sense but
we're going to come to Cittàgazze or Sittàgazze
We think Ch-ittàgazze. Where do we start with book 2, ask me a question Kiran I don't
even know where to begin what did you expect the first chapter to be?
Good question - I've still got the same cup of tea from our book 1 discussion
so yeah so you finish book one and Lyra is sort of
going off into this new world so you expect chapter one book two is going to
pick you up there. No, no not at all, who is this new character what is this world that we are now in
And I suppose I think anecdotally I'd heard that some people were like
oh oh I'm a bit disappointed that we've kind of gone
here where other I was like oh this is exciting
new character and I suppose the world is very much our world so I was like okay
oh oh it's we're in sort of like Normal-land... or Earth as some people call it
and that was that was sort of yeah that was weirdly comforting
you're straight into this quite action-y plot aren't you,
he's immediately under threat which is quite scary
so that despite the fact the world is familiar the idea of him being in peril
means that you don't get to relax at all you're like okay we're having a chase, and there's a
change of pace which I quite enjoyed yes it's like entering the final few
chapters of a thriller yeah except it's the first chapter of a book where you
expected to read about Lyra's foot landing the other side of the Northern Lights
this new world yeah and what a brave mad decision to make and so here for it
I remember thinking that I was just I don't know who Will is, but I care deeply
about who he is and instantly he is set up in many ways in opposition to
Lyra even though you know that they've got to somehow become parallel then but
he is our traditional hero it seems you know he's very protective loving of his
mum when he kills a man accidentally he doesn't want to have done that yeah
whereas Lyra probably would've jumped up and down like yeah I'm just like my father
and like Iorek and and and so he's more sort of a traditional hero with our
world morals and ethics so that there is that extra layer of sort of intrigue
about are we going to see these two worlds meet where the ethics and morals are so different.
yes yes that's interesting, I hadn't thought of that.
I mean I have a propensity to obviously like any character who has my
name so obviously I was right I like this Will he seems like a good guy yeah and I just
I like the fact that the game you were chucked straight into the action no
explanation that we're back into sort of Normal-land as I now call it
and then you're thinking I wonder how whether we're going to go back to Lyra and how
we're going to go back to Lyra and what I particularly loved about this book was
that you have these multiple worlds I suppose, because we have Cittàgazze as well
and I loved the bravery of that and the way that it sort of linked
them all together and the sort of traveling between them was very well
explained and I just thought that's quite a brave thing to do and didn't feel
weird actually at all no because it sets it up like quite a straight thriller
these guys are after some letters that his mother has and then sort of Will
runs away from them and then suddenly he follows the cat through into another world
We've all done it - I would follow a cat anywhere so that would probably happen to me
I have a thing now so that you know sometimes you read
a book and it alters the way you see the world so, Kiran doesn't know this, but
when I arrived, we're in Kiran's house right now, and when I arrived here
I parked up outside and I looked at your house and I saw your cat in the window
and I was like it's all gone very Pullman, I was worried I was going to see the
entrance to another world slip through it and that this this chat would never
happen but isn't that interesting how Pullman has that ability to to just
alter the way that you see things after reading his books. I have the same thing
now with Oxford and the spires and yes it yes because you situates you so
perfectly that you believe it and so when weird stuff starts to happen
you just accept it like ah well that's an explanation that's where missing cats
go there just go into another world - I'm going to remember
this excuse for if I ever lose our cat and I have to explain to my kids - it's gone to
another world, it's fine. Not Cittàgazze though, they do not like cats there!
Let's talk about Cittàgazze because this is why this covers makes
more sense now because it's a sort of empty sort of city which felt feels very
weird and alien and there's only a few children living in it what a weird
creation and I was saying to you just before we started the camera rolling that
this reminded me of if you've seen the film Inception there's this bit where he
and his wife sort of descend into this level where they're there to, they
create their own architecture whilst they're down there basically they build
these buildings and this sort of city that's empty and it feels very weirdly
realized in that film but when I was reading this I was like oh that's that that
makes perfect sense to me visually I could sort of really really see it
did you have it when you were reading it to the first time how did you visualise...
a bit like Lord of the Flies but in a city instead of on an island - it terrified me I'm
I've always been a goody two-shoes and I like authority figures and just that
idea that *miaow* do we need to... That's the cat! That's so weird
Shall we open the door and let her in? Okay
Let's see how well that goes! Hey you! She is not happy with us
so we opened the door for the cat and she's not interested Now that it's open she's like...
What's your cat called? Luna
Luna is not into the idea of sitting here and talking about Pullman.
we'll leave the door open, she may make an appearance later, stay tuned to find out
Where were we? So I like authority figures is what I was saying and so
that lack of order instantly was terrifying to me whereas I'm aware that
some kids will come to that and think 'Ooh great, no grownups.' Which is what Lyra and
Will to a certain extent do, though Will as a carer for his mother takes on that
kind of parental figure, whereas Lyra has never made herself any food because she's
spoilt and has never had to cook for herself so that did, that worried me
from the off but I think some people come into that and think oh this is
great until there is that bit where you come across the kids stoning the cat
yeah as we realize that this is not, that they are terrified and they are
terrified of it and they very quickly built up this kind of Mythology around
what's going on to them with them basically so that this poor cat is
considered to be a sort of a demon - a demon not a good daemon
Yes But yes the spectres obviously in the City and they feed off adults
and just a horrifying absolutely horrifying and when towards the end of
the book jumping ahead a bit we finally experience what it must be like to be
killed by a Spectre yeah through that poor witch, I think her name's Lena and that that
hopelessness that washes over you is very Dementor-esque - before the Dementors obviously
but um yeah that just that draining of all hope and just a descent
into indifference is the word he keeps coming to and which is obviously
important - Yeah that is a very weird thing, so it's not - I suppose similar to the
Dementors but it's not like having your soul sucked out but that idea of just
giving up - yes - which I found almost more terrifying than any other description of
sort of death that I can think of you know that you would simply just give up
- cease to care or be interested in the world and that
that seems to Pullman to be the most horrifying thing that lack of engagement
it goes so dark this book It's very dark which again I loved I like the darkness
I liked the multiple worlds I like that the plot really ratchets up
and so it's quite action-y, as you say it has these thriller-esque moments
but you know it doesn't let up the pace at all even in Cittàgazze which has this
sort of empty feeling to it there's still lots of stuff happening isn't there. Yeah
and they're constantly hopping between the worlds I love that it's not this
momentous thing anymore it sort of becomes a device to sort of get what
they want and obviously on one of their latest trips they meet Mary Malone and
and she is a brilliant character, this nun turned scientist and a character that
I'd sort of forgotten about before the reread but she's so integral and becomes
more and more integral and she is the serpent and obviously we find out what
that means in the third book but she she's a brilliant brilliant but they're
all brilliant characters and we switch between all of them and I would read a
full trilogy about any one of the multiple characters yes he sort of
explores in this this book - I think that's a good sign of somebody who's
put the work in, of a writer who's really sat down, there's a fully realized
world, these characters are fully fleshed out and, as you say, that means that
you would quite happily follow them into their world and there and find out more
about their lives and I'm not sure that's the case with all books and I
think that it's a testament to the work that he's clearly done before sitting
down to write them that you feel fully supported in every character, every place,
every facet of the plot. The weird thing I think about the second book
that might be a difficult part of a trilogy, difficult second novels syndrome
there's often this thing with films, with trilogies sometimes
the second film can be the best so people will talk about things like
Empire Strikes Back or Godfather Part two and I kind of feel - I have only read...
I haven't gone ahead and read book 3 but with book 2 I thought it was
brilliant and I was surprised to hear that some people have been a bit disappointed
by it I I thought it was totally satisfying They are wrong!
If you think that you're wrong! All opinions welcome! We would love, again, to hear your
opinions in the comments so if you're reading for the first time like me you
know how did you find the journey into this second book
and if you're rereading it again are you discovering new layers or I
think with the second book it seems like it would be slightly different rereading
experience the first book because it's not about sort of re-familiarising
yourself with those characters again because it's the same set of characters,
and some new ones, but yeah what was it like for you rereading
I'd forgotten so many threads. The Subtle Knife comes in so late which I I thought
that they'd had that earlier, I'd basically forgotten about Lord Boreal and that
creepy seduction scene with Mrs Coulter and just the way that Mrs Coulter
just pops up in the most dramatic ways possible at the least helpful ways
I love that, that Pullman's like 'Oh, thing's are kinda going smoothly -
Here is Mrs Coulter to ruin everything!'
and obviously Lee Scoresby, do you get why I love him? Yes!
He really comes to the fore in the second book doesn't he, he has a
lot to do and and and definitely sort of lands as a character
Literally lands! Oh yeah all the puns right here
Mrs Coulter, it's probably worth talking about her because we didn't talk about her in book one but she is this
horrifically malevolent presence and as you say she just appears when you don't
want her to. Is there a danger with a character like that, they become sort of
mwa-ha-ha evil or is there does he do enough work with that thing because of that
relationship her and Lyra have and that sort of you can see how its seductive
the way that she's beautiful and that she can introduce you to world that you've never been a part of
I do think that underpinning of love for Lyra is enough
to kind of keep her grounded and not descending into mwa-ha ha villainy
But she is ruthless and I think that that is a trait matched in many of my
favorite characters like Iorek Byrnison and just so because she's on this side
of it rather than that she's the villain but
I admire her ruthlessness and her calculation and the way that she
that everyone in the book is in awe of her in the true sense like she is
awesome and terrifying I thought what I really liked actually was the moment
that she had together with Lord Asriel when he was saying to her come with me
- at the end of the end of the first book - and that there was this moment where you
saw this sort of little chink in her armor where she you know was thinking
about it and then this defence descends and she goes 'No, I can't' and I
just thought wow that's that was I thought was a very powerful moment you
saw the humanity that then you saw the the sort of the ice cold control that
she seems to have - yeah the control, she controls herself and actually it was that
weakness that she has for Lord Asriel that blinded her to seeing that
Lyra was right there and literally listening and seeing her parents together.
Amazing okay I think we've said enough about The Subtle Knife
I do now genuinely do have to go away and read book three which is a bit bigger
and a bit longer but we will see you back here hopefully in a month's time to
talk about book 3 and the conclusion of the trilogy which is I don't know it's
exciting and terrifying at the same time I think it's a good thing, that you want
I want to know what happens but I also don't want it to end
because I'm enjoying the world I also kind of don't want it to happen because
you know it's going to end badly for some people Wow, I didn't know that!
It's going to! Look how he ended this book!
It was like Lee Scoresby and John Parry like boom boom - yeah - gone
There will be blood as they say Okay so, we'll see you in about a month's time
to talk about book 3 and as mentioned before there are these great discussion videos
with Kiran and Martha talking about the sort of themes and characters, I think
second video is Characters which is really good to hear, some more about
Lee Scoresby - more fangirling - I think somebody likes Lee Scoresby that's all
I'm going to say - he's the best - but thank you for watching
and we'll see you in a month's time. Take care.
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