COMING UP ON NEED TO KNOW...IT HAPPENED MORE THAN 4 DECADES AGO
- SO WHY DOES ITS LEGACY STILL HAUNT US TO THIS DAY?
UNCOVERING THE ATTICA PRISON UPRISING AND HOW IT IMPACTED THE
CURRENT STATE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE.
THAT - JUST AHEAD.
ALSO ON THE SHOW - HE'S THE RADIO PERSONALITY EVERYONE
CALLS "BROTHER."
AND HE'S SHARING STORIES ABOUT A BROTHERHOOD THAT SAW HIM THROUGH
SOME OF THE BEST OF TIMES AND THE WORST OF TIMES.
REFLECTIONS OF VIETNAM WITH BROTHER WEASE.
STAY WITH US, "NEED TO KNOW" STARTS RIGHT NOW.
(MUSIC)
IT WAS ONE OF THE BLOODIEST PRISON UPRISINGS IN OUR NATION'S
HISTORY.
AND DECADES LATER, SOME OF THE QUESTIONS SURROUNDING WHAT
REALLY HAPPENED IN THE ATTICA CORRECTIONAL FACILITY
REMAIN UNANSWERED.
HOWEVER, NEW FINDINGS WERE UNCOVERED AFTER YEARS OF
SEARCHING AND DIGGING BY UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN PROFESSOR
AND HISTORIAN -- HEATHER ANN THOMPSON.
SHE REVEALS HER FINDINGS IN HER 2017 PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING
BOOK: "BLOOD IN THE WATER: THE ATTICA UPRISING OF 1971 AND
ITS LEGACY."
DURING A RECENT VISIT TO ROCHESTER,
THOMPSON JOINED ME HERE IN THE STUDIO TO DISCUSS THE WARNING
SIGNS IN ATTICA THAT STILL EXIST TODAY.
TAKE A LOOK...
(HELENE) FIRST HEATHER, CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR 2017
PULITZER PRIZE WIN FOR BLOOD IN THE WATER.
AND I HAVE TO ASK YOU WHAT WAS IT THAT FIRST MADE YOU
INTERESTED IN THE STORY?
I WANNA KNOW WHAT WAS IT ABOUT ATTICA THAT TUGGED THE HISTORIAN
AND THE WRITER IN YOU?
YOU ARE A CIVIL RIGHTS SCHOLAR, SO I KNOW YOU ARE RENOWNED FOR
YOUR WORK WHEN IT COMES TO THE HISTORY OF MASS INCARCERATION
AND POLICING.
BUT WHAT WAS IT THAT MADE YOU SAY I WILL DEVOTE MORE THAN 10
YEARS OF MY LIFE, REALLY, TO RESEARCHING THIS STORY?
(HEATHER THOMPSON) WELL IT WAS IN SOME RESPECTS COMPLETELY BY
ACCIDENT, WHICH IS TO SAY I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT
PRISON, I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT PRISONS IN AMERICA OR
INCARCERATION AT THE TIME THAT I DECIDED TO DO THE BOOK.
I CAME TO IT BECAUSE AS YOU SAY, I WAS A CIVIL RIGHTS HISTORIAN,
AND THIS WAS A CIVIL RIGHTS UPRISING BEHIND BARS SO I
THOUGHT THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING AND WANTED TO DO A
BOOK ABOUT IT.
ONE OF THE REASONS THERE HADN'T BEEN A BOOK IS THAT THE STORY
WAS ONGOING AND THE STATE OF NEW YORK HAD MADE IT VIRTUALLY
IMPOSSIBLE TO GET THE RECORDS TO TELL THE STORY.
SO WHAT BEGAN AS I THINK I'M GOING TO JUST DO A HISTORY BOOK
ON ATTICA REALLY BECAME A 13 YEAR ODYSSEY TO BOTH TELL THAT
STORY BUT REALLY TO THINK ABOUT PRISONS IN AMERICA IN A NEW WAY,
NEW TO ME CERTAINLY AND I THINK NEW TO A LOT OF THE READERS.
(HELENE) THE PICTURE THAT YOU PAINT OF ATTICA AT THE TIME OF
BLOOD IN THE WATER IS IT'S 1971, THE CONDITIONS WERE HORRIFIC.
INMATES WERE SEGREGATED BY RACE.
RACIAL HARASSMENT TOOK PLACE PREDOMINATELY BY AN ALL-WHITE
GUARD STAFF.
HIGHER PAYING JOBS PREDOMINATELY WENT TO WHITE INMATES.
MEDICAL CARE WAS HORRENDOUS.
INMATES WERE GIVEN INSUFFICIENT SANITARY ITEMS AND ALLOWED TO
SHOWER ONCE A WEEK.
AND THE LIST REALLY DOES GO ON AND ON.
YOU MENTIONED THIS WAS AN ODYSSEY FOR YOU IN PART BECAUSE
OF THE FACT THAT RECORDS AND DOCUMENTS IN NEW YORK STATE WERE
REALLY KEPT FROM PEOPLE TRYING TO INVESTIGATE
THE STORY FURTHER.
WHY WAS THAT ALLOWED TO HAPPEN AND WHY WAS IT SO DIFFICULT TO
GET SOME OF THIS INFORMATION?
(THOMPSON) WELL FIRST IT'S IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT ONE OF
THE THINGS THAT HAD HAPPENED BEFORE THE UPRISING WAS
THAT-CONDITIONS WEREN'T JUST BAD FOR PRISONERS, BY THE WAY,
BUT ALSO BAD FOR A LOT OF THE CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS.
AND BOTH GROUPS HAD REALLY BEEN TRYING TO WORK THROUGH THE
SYSTEM TO GET THIS ADDRESSED.
WRITING LETTERS TO STATE SENATORS,
THE CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS WERE MEETING WITH THEIR UNION REPS,
SO WHEN THIS ALL SORT OF EXPLODES,
FIRST OF ALL I THINK IT WAS VERY PREVENTABLE.
BUT SECONDLY, WHEN IT DOES EXPLODE,
THERE'S A REAL LINE IN THE HAND DRAWN BY NEW YORK STATE,
WHOSE GOVERNOR AT THE TIME WAS NELSON ROCKEFELLER.
SO EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE NEGOTIATIONS FOR 4 DAYS AND 4
NIGHTS, AND EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE MULTIPLE AVENUES TO A
PEACEFUL SETTLEMENT, THE RETAKING OF THIS PRISON BY STATE
TROOPERS WAS BRUTAL.
AND BECAUSE OF THAT, BECAUSE OF THE REAL CARNAGE IN ATTICA,
39 MEN SHOT TO DEATH, BOTH HOSTAGE GUARD AND CIVILIAN
HOSTAGES AND PRISONERS, 128 MEN IN TOTAL SHOT SO SEVERELY THEY
WERE PERMANENTLY MAIMED AND WOUNDED.
SO THE REASONS THE RECORDS WERE DIFFICULT TO GET IT THAT IT'S A
STORY THAT LIVES ON.
PEOPLE ARE STILL TRAUMATIZED BY IT.
FRANKLY THERE'S NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS ON MURDER.
THERE IS IN ESSENCE A LOT AT STAKE IN THE TELLING OF THIS
STORY EVEN THOUGH IRONICALLY, THE SURVIVORS ARE NOT INTERESTED
IN CURRENT LITIGATION, THEY JUST WANT THE STORY.
THEY WANT CLOSURE.
SO I THINK THEY SHOULD OPEN A RECKONS,
BUT THE JOURNEY TO MAKE THAT POINT WAS DIFFICULT.
(HELENE) AND YOU'VE BEEN TO ATTICA.
(THOMPSON) YES.
(HELENE) WHAT WAS THAT EXPERIENCE LIKE FOR YOU,
AND WHEN YOU LOOKED AROUND AT THE CONDITIONS,
DO YOU DRAW PARALLELS TO HOW THINGS EXIST TODAY WHEN IT COMES
TO PRISONS AROUND THE COUNTRY?
(THOMPSON) FRANKLY, ATTICA IS A VERY UNUSUAL PLACE IN THE SENSE
IT IS SORT OF FROZEN IN TIME.
WHEN I WENT IN, I THINK IT WAS 2004,
AND WHAT WAS SO STARTLING WAS IT COULD HAVE BEEN 1971.
EVEN UP ON THE CATWALK WHICH SORT OF OVERSEES THE YARD,
THERE WERE STILL BULLET MARKS, CHIPS IN THE CEMENT FROM
THE RETAKING.
SO ATTICA IN SOME SENSE IS A TRAUMA SITE EVEN TODAY,
AND MORE BROADLY PEOPLE FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THE
CONDITIONS AT ATTICA AND THE CONDITIONS NATIONALLY AT PRISONS
ARE WORSE THAN THEY WERE IN 1971 AND MY BOOK TRIES TO MAKE THE
CASE THAT THAT'S NOT COINCIDENTAL,
THAT IT ACTUALLY HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT WE GOT
ATTICA WRONG.
WE MISUNDERSTOOD THE MESSAGES WERE COMING OUT OF ATTICA AND
TOOK FROM IT AN EXCUSE TO GET MORE PUNITIVE RATHER THAN
FINALLY ADDRESS THIS ISSUE OF HORRENDOUS PRISON CONDITIONS.
(HELENE) HEATHER, HOW ARE THEY WORSE NOW THAN THEY WERE
WORSE THEN?
SOME PEOPLE WERE MAYBE SURPRISED WATCHING TO HEAR THAT.
(THOMPSON) YEAH!
FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE FAR MORE PEOPLE IN PRISON NOW THAN WE
EVER HAD.
IT WAS REALLY IN 1972 RIGHT AFTER ATTICA THAT THE PRISON
POPULATION IN THE COUNTRY JUST EXPLODED.
SO WE NOW HAVE MORE PEOPLE BEHIND BARS THAN ANY OTHER
COUNTRY ON THE PLANET.
AND THOSE PEOPLE ARE THERE FOR A MYRIAD OF REASONS THAT THEY
NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE IN 1971.
SO FIRST OF ALL WE'RE CRIMINALIZING PEOPLE MORE.
WE'RE LOCKING UP PEOPLE MORE.
THE CONDITIONS INSIDE ARE MORE OVERCROWDED,
MUCH MORE USE OF SOLITARY CONFINEMENT,
REPEATED USE OF VIOLENCE IN PRISONS HAS MUCH ESCALATED
FROM THE 70S.
SO ON TOP OF ALL OF THAT PEOPLE ARE DOING MUCH MORE TIME,
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE IN FOR EXAMPLE WHERE I AM FROM , MICHIGAN,
PEOPLE ARE DOING 80% MORE TIME IN ONE DECADE THAN THEY WERE FOR
THE SAME CRIME A DECADE BEFORE.
THIS IS ALL POLITICAL, RIGHT?
THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE CRIME RATE.
IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE STREETS.
IT'S REALLY ABOUT HOW WE DEAL WITH SOCIAL ILLS IN
THIS COUNTRY.
(HELENE) AND JUST TO PAINT OF THE NUMBERS,
YOU MENTION THIS IN THE BOOK, IN 1971 NEW YORK HAD
12, 500 PRISONERS.
NEAR THE START OF THE 21ST CENTURY,
THERE WERE NEARLY 74,000 MEN AND WOMEN.
AND AS YOU WRITE, OVERWHELMINGLY BLACK AND BROWN CITIZENS OF THE
STATE, LOCKED IN NEW YORK PENAL INSTITUTIONS.
(THOMPSON) RIGHT.
AND ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT SO MANY CITIZENS TODAY,
ORDINARY VOTERS WHO HAVE ALL GOOD INTENTIONS,
THEY LOOK AT THAT DATA AND SAY WELL MY GOD,
THAT'S PRETTY ALARMING, BUT ISN'T THAT WHERE THE CRIME IS,
OR ISN'T THAT THE PROBLEM?
AND WE KNOW FROM OUR STUDIES, OUR EXTENSIVE STUDIES OF THIS
THAT IT'S MUCH MORE TO DO WITH WHERE POLICING RESOURCES GO.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, WE KNOW MORE WHITE FOLKS SELL AND USE DRUGS
BUT YOU'D NEVER KNOW THAT BY THE STATISTICS IN THE PRISON.
SO PRISONS BECOME OVER THE COURSE OF THE 20TH CENTURY,
AND RALLY AFTER ATTICA, THE PLACE WHERE WE THROW ALL OF OUR
SOCIAL PROBLEMS AND SORT OF WEIRDLY EXPECT THAT THEY'LL
GET BETTER.
IT'S ABOUT THE ONLY INSTITUTE IN OUR SOCIETY WITH ABOUT A 70%
FAILURE RATE AND YET WE JUST KEEP THROWING MONEY, MONEY,
MONEY AT IT AND WE DON'T ASK TO SEE INSIDE.
WE LET IT ALL HAPPEN BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND JUST TRUST THAT
IT'S WORKING WHEN THE DATA SHOWS IT'S A DISMAL FAILURE.
(HELENE) WELL THERE WERE APPROXIMATELY
1, 300 INMATES IN ATTICA AT THE TIME OF THE 1971 UPRISING.
YOU TALKED TO A NUMBER OF THESE INMATE.
WHO WERE THESE MEN BACK IN 1971?
I WANNA KNOW WHAT WERE THEIR STORIES, WHY WERE THEY THERE?
(THOMPSON) YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE TODAY, IT WAS A REAL MIXED BAG.
WE HEAR THE TERM ATTICA, AT LEAST NATIONALLY,
OH THE WORST OF THE WORST.
AND OF COURSE IN ANY INSTITUTION THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS WHO
HAVE COMMITTED A LOT OF HARM TO SOCIETY, TO INDIVIDUALS,
BUT IN 1971, LIKE TODAY, THERE WERE PEOPLE YOU'D BE SURPRISED.
THERE WERE 19 YEAR OLD PAROLE VIOLATORS.
THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO HAD NO BUSINESS BEING IN A MAXIMUM
SECURITY PRISON.
A LOT OF VIETNAM VETS SUFFERING DRUG ADDICTION AND A LOT OF
FOLKS WITH MENTAL ILLNESS.
AND SO WHEN WE LOOK AT THAT GROUP OF MEN AND WE HEAR
STORIES, I THINK EVEN THE READERS OF THIS BOOK WERE VERY
SURPRISED TO SAY, WOW, THESE ARE VERY HUMAN STORIES.
ONE OF THE OPENING STORIES IN THE BOOK IS ACTUALLY ABOUT AN
OLD MAN, HIS FIRST NIGHT IN THE YARD,
AND THERE'S JUST TEARS COMING DOWN HIS FACE AND WHEN HIS
FRIEND SAYS WHAT'S WRONG, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING,
AND HE'S JUST STARING IN AMAZEMENT AT THE SKY.
HE SAYS I HAVEN'T SEEN THE STARS IN 22 YEARS.
SO IT WAS SORT OF THIS VERY EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE FOR
THESE MEN.
THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GET OUT.
THEY WANTED TO BE TREATED AS HUMAN BEINGS WITHIN.
(HELENE) SO YOU EXPLAINED THAT THE UPRISING WAS NOT
PREMEDITATED.
HOW DID IT HAPPEN?
AND HOW DID IT TRANSITION FROM THIS REALLY UNINTENDED UPRISING
TO A TAKEOVER, WITH PRISONERS SAYING HEY WE'LL NEGOTIATE.
WE WANT TO MAKE SURE OUR ARRANGEMENTS ARE SIGNIFICANTLY
DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH.
(THOMPSON) WELL IT WAS A, IT'S A COMPLICATED STORY BUT IN SHORT
WHAT HAPPENED WAS A DAY MUCH LIKE MANY OTHER DAYS THAT HAD
HAPPENED, WHICH WAS THAT THERE HAD BEEN A CONFLICT BETWEEN THE
PRISONERS AND THE C.O.S, THE CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS,
BUT IN THIS CASE, PRISON MANAGEMENT,
USUALLY TONE DEAF TO THEIR OWN EMPLOYEES HAD BEEN TELLING THEM
AND THE PRISONERS, MADE A DECISION TO LOCK SOME DOORS,
TO NOT ALLOW THE MEN TO GO OUT TO THE REC YARD AFTER BREAKFAST
AS WOULD HAVE BEEN COMMON.
BUT THEY NEVER TOLD THE C.O.S, NEVER TOLD THE PRISONERS,
SO PANIC ENSUED, SO EVERYONE WAS VERY FEARFUL,
AND IN THAT PANIC CAME WHAT WE WOULD REALLY THINK OF AS A RIOT.
IT WAS COMPLETE CHAOS, A GATE OPENS UNEXPECTEDLY BECAUSE OF A
FAULTY WELD IN IT AND PRETTY SOON THE PRISON IS JUST CHAOS
BUT WHAT IS REMARKABLE IS AS YOU POINT OUT IS THAT THERE HAD
ALREADY BEEN SO MANY DISCUSSIONS IN THE PRISON ABOUT THE
IMPORTANCE OF BEING HEARD, THAT SO MANY LETTERS HAD BEEN
WRITTEN, SO MANY MEETINGS HAD BEEN HELD THAT SAID,
WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING, THAT REMARKABLY QUICKLY THE MEN SAID
LOOK WE NEED TO MOVE TO ONE OPEN SPACE SO PEOPLE CAN BE SAFER WE
NEED TO BRING IN THE MEDIA SO THAT THEY CAN HEAR OUR STORIES,
AND WE WANT TO BRING IN OBSERVERS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE
STATE OF NEW YORK BARGAINS WITH US IN GOOD FAITH.
ALL OF THOSE THINGS MADE IT REALLY A HISTORIC REBELLION
BECAUSE FOR THE FIRST TIME THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WAS BROUGHT
INSIDE OF A PRISON AND FRANKLY WAS HORRIFIED BY WHAT
IT LEARNED.
(HELENE) AND THEN ANOTHER TRANSITION TAKES PLACE AND THAT
IS FROM WHAT WAS NEGOTIATIONS TO GOVERNOR NELSON ROCKEFELLER
SAYING IN SO MANY WORDS, "WE ARE GOING TO TAKE THIS PRISON BACK
BY FORCE."
SOMETHING THAT THE OBSERVERS WHO WERE THERE SAID THIS WOULD LEAD
TO (TOGETHER) A MASSACRE (HELENE) EXACTLY (THOMPSON)
THEY WERE CLEAR (HELENE) SO IS THIS THAT MOMENT WHEN THINGS
BECAME VIOLENT AND DEADLY?
THIS TAKE OVER?
(THOMPSON) YES, AND IN PART THAT THIS IS WHAT THE CORE OF THE
BOOK IS, AND PEOPLE MAY BE SURPRISED THAT ONLY THE FIRST
THIRD OF THE BOOK IS ACTUALLY ABOUT THE UPRISING,
AND THAT WAS A SURPRISE TO ME THE MAJORITY OF THE BOOK IS
ACTUALLY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IN THE 40 YEARS AFTERWARDS BECAUSE
ON THAT FATEFUL DAY, SEPTEMBER 13TH,
46 YEARS AGO THE STATE OF NEW YORK,
SPECIFICALLY GOVERNOR ROCKEFELLER MAKE A DECISION TO
TAKE THIS PRISON BY FORCE SENDING IN STATE TROOPERS WHO
FOR DAYS HAD BEEN OUTSIDE OF THE PRISON BEING FED ON RUMORS BY
THE FBI, GETTING THEM RILED UP GETTING THEM ANGRY,
AND PASSING OUT WEAPONS INDISCRIMINATELY AND THAT'S WHO
HE SENT IN, AND SO UNSURPRISINGLY PERHAPS,
THAT'S WHERE THE MASSACRE OCCURS,
THAT'S WHERE THERE'S A BLOODBATH,
AND IT WAS IN THE NEXT 40 YEARS THAT WE NOW KNOW FROM THE BOOK
THAT WE DIDN'T LEARN WHAT HAD HAPPENED BECAUSE THAT
ADMINISTRATION ACTUALLY PARTICIPATED IN A REALLY
DELIBERATE COVER UP OF THE EVENTS.
THERE'S A SERIES OF MEETINGS IN ROCKEFELLER'S POOL HOUSE WHERE
THEY ESSENTIALLY GET THEIR STORIES STRAIGHT,
THE HEAD OF THE STATE POLICE ARE THERE,
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS THERE, ROCKEFELLER'S MEN ARE THERE AND
WE DIDN'T KNOW ANY OF THIS IN PART BECAUSE THOSE RECORDS
ARE SEALED.
(HELENE) PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON IN HIS RESPONSE TO THE DECISION
TO NOT GRANT AMNESTY, TO FORGET THE NEGOTIATIONS,
AND TO TAKE THIS PRISON BACK BY FORCE,
HIS RESPONSE IS SHARED IN THE BOOK,
A QUOTE THAT YOU GOT FROM A RECORDING FROM NIXON IN THE OVAL
OFFICE AND I'M GOING TO SHARE JUST A LITTLE BIT OF THAT.
HE SAID, "THEY KILLED SEVEN GUARDS, A BLOODY BUSINESS,
ROCKEFELLER HANDLED IT WELL, YOU SEE IT'S THE BLACK BUSINESS,
HE HAD TO DO IT."
WHAT DOES THAT STATEMENT TELL US?
(THOMPSON) WELL, IT TELLS US EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS NATION
WHICH IS THAT AT SOME FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL WE HAVE
HISTORICALLY FROM DAY ONE HAD A TERRIFIC PROBLEM WITH
UNDERSTANDING THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE HUMAN BEINGS,
AND IN PRISON, THAT BECOMES GLARINGLY APPARENT,
BUT WITH NIXON IT WAS GLARINGLY APPARENT THROUGHOUT
HIS ADMINISTRATION.
SO WHEN HE SEES ATTICA, AND HE SEES THERE'S BEEN A BLOODBATH,
HIS CONCERN WAS WHO WAS KILLED, AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE IF HOSTAGES
WERE KILLED BUT IF IT'S MOSTLY BLACK FOLKS WHO WERE, SO BE IT.
IN OTHER WORDS, THAT'S HIS ONLY CONCERN IS THAT IT WASN'T ONE OF
US, MEANING WHITE-FOLKS, THAT WERE KILLED,
AND FRANKLY THAT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE CORE OF WHY
ATTICA WAS ABLE TO BE COVERED UP SO EASILY BECAUSE PRISONERS,
OVERWHELMINGLY BLACK AND BROWN PRISONERS,
WHO WERE TRYING TO TELL THE WORLD, WE ARE BEING BEATEN,
WE ARE BEING ABUSED - THE TORTURE THAT HAPPENS AFTER THE
RETAKING IS SO SHOCKING, INDEED IN MY BOOK IT TAKES UP ABOUT TWO
CHAPTERS, I MUST SAY THE MOST PAINFUL TO WRITE,
PROBABLY THE MOST PAINFUL TO READ,
AND UNIMAGINABLE TO EXPERIENCE, AND NOBODY LISTENED AND IN PART
NOBODY LISTENED BECAUSE OF THIS VERY FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM THAT WE
HAVE WITH RACE IN THIS COUNTRY WHICH IS DENYING THE HUMANITY OF
PEOPLE WHO DON'T LOOK WHITE, WHO AREN'T WHITE BY THEIR IDENTITY
OR BY THE WAY WE SEE THEM AND SO FRANKLY THAT IS THE CORE OF WHAT
NIXON WAS SAYING.
(HELENE) ROCHESTER FINDS ITS WAY IN BLOOD IN THE WATER QUITE A
BIT FROM THE FIGHT ORGANIZATION FOUNDED BY MINISTER FRANKLIN
FLORENCE WHO TRIED TO INTERCEDE TO GET BETTER MEDICAL CARE FOR
PRISONERS TO THE LATE HOWARD COLES WHO WAS ROCHESTER'S FIRST
BLACK RADIO PERSONALITY, DEDICATED A BROADCAST TO SHARE
ANY AND ALL INFORMATION HE COULD GET FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF
CORRECTIONS ABOUT THE INMATES WHO WERE KILLED SINCE FAMILIES
WERE NOT NOTIFIED AND ALSO A FEDERAL JUDGE IN ROCHESTER,
WHO ANNOUNCED A SETTLEMENT IN THE YEAR 2000 FOR THE INMATES
WHO WERE TORTURED.
IS THERE A PARTICULAR ROCHESTER STORY THAT PARTICULARLY STANDS
OUT TO YOU?
(THOMPSON) YOU KNOW, ROCHESTER IS SO IMPORTANT TO THIS STORY
AND IT'S ACTUALLY SO IMPORTANT TO THE HEROIC PART OF THIS STORY
WHICH IS NOT ONLY AS YOU MENTION JUDGE TELESCA WHO WAS SO
IMPORTANT NOT ONLY IN FINALLY ALLOWING THE PRISONERS WHO WERE
TORTURED AND MAIMED TO TELL THEIR STORIES AND TO HAVE A
SETTLEMENT WITH THE STATE BUT TO ALLOW THE GUARDS WHO HAD BEEN SO
TRAUMATIZED TO FINALLY HAVE THEIR - AND CIVILIAN HOSTAGES TO
HAVE THEIR MOMENT WITH THE STATE.
SO HE WAS A HERO, BUT AS YOU MENTION, REVEREND WAS A HERO,
AS WAS THE REPORTER, YOU KNOW THE GUY WHO ESSENTIALLY ON THE
RADIO IS TELLING FOLKS WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR BROTHER,
WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR FATHER, SO ROCHESTER IS A REALLY CRITICALLY
IMPORTANT PART OF THIS STORY.
(HELENE) I WOULD NO DOUBT IMAGINE,
IN ADDITION TO THE HIGH PRAISE THAT YOU'VE RECEIVED THAT YOU'VE
LIKELY ALSO DRAWN SOME CRITICISM FOR THE SYMPATHY THAT YOU SHOWED
TO SOME OF THE INMATES AT ATTICA AND I'M TALKING ABOUT CRITICISM
IN PARTICULAR FROM THOSE WHO WOULD SAY,
"WHAT HAPPENS TO PRISONERS BEHIND PRISON WALLS,
THAT DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE THEY FOUND THEMSELVES IN THERE
BY THE CHOICES THAT THEY MADE AND NOW THEY HAVE TO REAP THE
REPERCUSSIONS."
FOR THOSE WHO WOULD SAY THAT WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM ABOUT
THE JUSTICE SYSTEM AND HUMAN LIFE BEHIND BARS?
(THOMPSON) WELL FIRSTLY I WOULD SAY THAT FOR THOSE WHO THINK
THAT THIS IS ONLY SYMPATHETIC TO THE PLIGHT OF THE PRISONERS,
THEY HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK.
THIS IS A STORY ABOUT MANY MANY SURVIVORS AND MANY VICTIMS AND
THOSE WERE NOT JUST THE PRISONERS.
THIS IS ABOUT STATE VIOLENCE, AND THIS IS ABOUT A STATE ABUSE
OF POWER, AND THERE WERE WHITE AND BLACK VICTIMS OF THIS AND
THERE WERE WHITE AND BLACK PRISONER VICTIMS OF THIS BUT THE
FUNDAMENTAL MESSAGE IS THAT JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE COMMITS HARM OR
WRONG, A CRIME, AND THEY'RE SENTENCED.
IN OUR NATION WE DO NOT SENTENCE PEOPLE TO ABUSE,
WE DON'T SENTENCE THEM TO TORTURE,
WE HONOR THE FACT THAT THEY REMAIN HUMAN BEINGS EVEN IF THEY
ARE SERVING TIME AND SO IT IS NOT INCONSISTENT TO DEMAND HUMAN
RIGHTS AND FAIR TREATMENT FOR PEOPLE SERVING TIME ALONG WITH
BELIEVING AS SOME DO THAT THIS IS A SYSTEM THAT CAN WORK.
SO HUMANITY, IT'S THE BOTTOM LINE.
WE HAVE TO TREAT PEOPLE AS HUMAN BEINGS IN THIS SYSTEM IF FOR NO
OTHER REASON, IF WE'RE HONEST, THEY ARE ALL OF US, RIGHT?
THEY ARE OUR MOTHERS, OUR BROTHERS, OUR SISTERS,
OUR AUNTS, OUR UNCLES, AND IF THEY ARE NOT OUR INDIVIDUAL
FAMILY MEMBERS, IT'S ONLY BY THE GRACE OF GOD BECAUSE WE KNOW IN
OUR OWN FAMILIES THAT THERE'S MANY FOLKS WHO'S ESCAPED THE
SYSTEM BY A HAIR AND ESCAPED IT ONLY BECAUSE WE HAD RESOURCES OR
WE HAD THE ABILITY TO SAVE THEM SO TO BE BEHIND BARS DOES NOT
MEAN THAT YOU'RE LESS THAN A PERSON AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE
TO REALLY UNDERSTAND.
(HELENE) AND AS YOU MENTIONED, YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT THE
CORRECTIONS OFFICERS, AND THOSE WHO HAD GREAT RELATIONSHIPS,
SOME HAD-I SHOULDN'T SAY GREAT, BUT POSITIVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH
THOSE IN THEIR COMPANY, GUARDS WHO HAD SYMPATHY FOR SOME OF THE
INMATES AND THE CONDITIONS THAT THEY WERE LIVING IN,
AND THEY AS YOU MENTION BEFORE, THEY SHARE THE FACT THAT,
LISTEN, MANAGEMENT, WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING BASED ON THE
CONDITIONS AND THEIR REQUESTS WERE NOT ANSWERED.
POST-ATTICA HAVE WE SEEN CHANGES WHEN IT COMES TO TRAINING FOR
EXAMPLE WITH CORRECTIONS OFFICERS IN PRISONS?
(THOMPSON) YOU KNOW RIGHT AFTER ATTICA IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE
THAT THERE WERE A SPADE OF REALLY IMPORTANT REFORMS AND IN
SOME RESPECTS IT MADE NEW YORK A MORE HUMANE SYSTEM THAN A LOT OF
OTHER STATES IN THE COUNTRY.
THE PROBLEM IS THE BACKLASH THAT FOLLOWS THAT-SO SEVERE,
AND SO FOR GUARDS, YES.
THERE ARE BETTER SALARIES, THERE IS BETTER TRAINING,
BUT THE PROBLEM IS THESE INSTITUTIONS HAVE BECOME SO
OVERCROWDED AND THE ETHOS BEHIND THEM IS SO PUNITIVE THAT THEY
ARE HELL HOLES TO WORK IN, THEY ARE HELLHOLES TO BE IN AND IF WE
AS VOTERS IN A NATION IMAGINE THAT THIS IS DOING GOOD FOR OUR
SOCIETY OR THAT THE PEOPLE WHO WILL RETURN HOME FROM THEM
EITHER AS THE KEPT OR THE KEEPERS ARE GOING TO BE OK,
THEN WE'RE REALLY LIVING UNDER A COMPLETE DELUSION.
WE HAVE TO OPEN THOSE WALLS UP, SEE WHAT IT IS,
AND TREAT THE GUARDS WHO WORK THERE BETTER,
THE CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES BETTER, AND ALSO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
SERVING SO MUCH TIME THERE, AND THEN IF WE DON'T,
WE HAVE OTHER ATTICAS AND IN FACT IT'S NOTABLE THAT JUST TWO
WEEKS, AGO ACTUALLY NO LAST WEEK,
A HUGE PRISON REBELLION IN KANSAS, LAST YEAR,
VAUGHN PRISON, KINROSS PRISON, I MEAN THERE WAS AN EXPLOSION OF
PRISON PROTESTS AND AGAIN ALWAYS A CRY FOR HELP JUST LIKE THE MEN
IN ATTICA.
(HELENE) I HEARD YOU SAY THAT ATTICA HAS TWO LEGACIES: ONE
BEING A LEGACY OF TRAUMA, IMMEASURABLE PAIN AND ALSO
PERMANENT WOUNDS, THE OTHER BEING A LEGACY OF NEW YORK STATE
CAUSING CARNAGE SO THE WORLD WOULD BE AGAINST PRISON REFORM.
WHAT'S THE LEGACY THAT YOU HOPE PEOPLE WILL FIND,
BASED ON YOUR FINDINGS AND YOUR RESEARCH IN BLOOD IN THE WATER?
WHAT'S THE LEGACY THAT YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE
LEFT WITH?
(THOMPSON) I HOPE THAT THE BOOK, BY BRINGING READERS INTO THE
ORDINARY LIVES OF THE MEN WHO WERE SERVING TIME,
THE ORDINARY LIVES OF THE MEN WHO WERE WORKING IN THIS PRISON,
AND THE ORDINARY LIVES OF ALL OF THEIR FAMILIES,
THEY UNDERSTAND THAT PRISONS ARE A REFLECTION OF US,
THAT PEOPLE IN THEM ARE PEOPLE THAT DESERVE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS,
AND THAT IF WE ALLOW STATE AUTHORITIES TO RUN THESE
INSTITUTIONS WITHOUT ANY CHECKS, WITHOUT ANY EYES ON THEM,
AND TO TELL US WHAT HAPPENS IN THEM,
WE ARE AT GREAT RISK BECAUSE ATTICA SHOWS THAT WHEN WE DON'T
WHAT GOES ON, WHAT GOES ON IS REALLY HORRIFIC WITH HUGE
CONSEQUENCES FOR OUR NATION.
WE NOW BECAME THE LARGEST PRISON NATION IN NO SMALL PART BECAUSE
WE COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT HAPPENED AT ATTICA.
THE STATE TOLD US THE CARNAGE AT ATTICA WAS DOWN TO THE
PRISONERS, THE PRISONERS HAD KILLED THE HOSTAGES,
IT WAS AN UTTER LIE, BUT THAT LIE TURNS A GENERATION OF VOTERS
AGAINST PRISON REFORM, AGAINST LOOKING AT PRISONS CRITICALLY
AND INSTEAD BRINGS ON THIS PUNITIVE,
PUNITIVE MOMENT SO HISTORY MATTERS.
(HELENE) PULITZER PRIZE WINNING AUTHOR HEATHER ANN THOMPSON IT'S
A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU HERE AND AN HONOR, THANK YOU.
(THOMPSON) THANK YOU SO MUCH
UNCOVERING NEVER BEFORE TOLD STORIES OF THE
VIETNAM WAR, ON FILM, WAS THE DECADE-LONG PROJECT OF
FILMMAKERS KEN BURNS AND LYNN NOVICK.
THEIR 18-HOUR, 10-PART DOCUMENTARY SERIES TITLED:
VIETNAM WAR, LAUNCHED IN LATE SEPTEMBER HERE ON WXXI.
THE FILM INCLUDES TESTIMONY FROM MORE THAN 100 WITNESSES OF
VARYING VIEWPOINTS, BELIEFS AND PERSPECTIVES.
W-X-X-I NEWS LAUNCHED ITS OWN WEB SERIES SHARING THE STORIES
OF THOSE WHO EXPERIENCED THE VIETNAM ERA.
TONIGHT WE BRING YOU THE STORY OF RENOWNED RADIO PERSONALITY
ALAN LEVIN, KNOWN AS "BROTHER WEASE."
HAVING SERVED THREE TOURS IN VIETNAM,
LEVIN SAYS THE WAR CHANGED HIM COMPLETELY.
TAKE A LOOK...
(MUSIC)
I ENLISTED BECAUSE ONE OF MY BEST BUDDIES FROM HIGH SCHOOL,
JOEY DRAYBIN ... HE WENT TO VIETNAM.
AND I GO, "I GOTTA GO."
IT'S JUST STUPID KID CRAP.
I WAS 19, SO I GO, "JOE'S THERE, I GOTTA GO TOO."
I HAD NO IDEA, POLITICALLY SPEAKING, ANYTHING.
THE WHOLE WAR CHANGED MY LIFE COMPLETELY.
BUT ONCE THE WAR WAS OVER, THIS COUNTRY DIDN'T SKIP A BEAT.
SO WHAT DID MY DEAD BROTHERS DO TO KEEP THIS COUNTRY SAFE?
I MEAN, IF YOU BE HONEST ABOUT IT, IT DOESN'T COME OUT PRETTY.
BUT WHY DON'T WE LEARN?
I THOUGHT, AS A RIDICULOUS HIPPIE AFTER THE WAR,
THAT THAT WAR WAS THE LAST WAR.
I ACTUALLY THOUGHT WE'D NEVER DO IT AGAIN,
BECAUSE IT DIDN'T AFFECT AMERICA.
BUT WE'RE STILL DOING IT, EXCEPT NOW, MORE FERVENTLY.
I'M ANTI-WAR, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE DON'T NEED A MILITARY TO
KEEP AMERICA WHERE IT IS.
I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND GETTING INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S CIVIL WARS
THAT WON'T AFFECT THIS COUNTRY.
BE SURE TO CHECK OUT THE FULL COLLECTION OF LOCAL VIETNAM WAR
STORIES AND INTERVIEWS ON OUR WEBSITE: WXXINEWS.ORG.
AND THAT WRAPS UP ANOTHER EDITION OF "NEED TO KNOW" -
WXXI'S NEWS MAGAZINE.
I'M YOUR HOST, HELENE BIANDUDI HOFER.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME TONIGHT AND THROUGHOUT THE WEEKEND HERE
ON WXXI TV AND ONLINE AT WXXINEWS.ORG.
HAVE A GREAT NIGHT AND I WILL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.
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