PERSONAL VIETNAM. JOINING US NOW ARE NICK AKERMAN,
FORMER ASSISTANT DAT FOR NEW YORK.
HE IS NOW A PARTNER AT DORSEY & WHETHER IT ANY.
PETER BAKER, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT FOR "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" AND AN MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST.
AND DAVID FRUM, SENIOR EDITOR FOR THE ATLANTIC.
THE TAPES, LET'S PRETEND FOR A MOMENT THEY EXIST.
THEY WILL BE SUBPOENAED? >> I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THEY
WILL BE SUBPOENAED. THEY ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE.
I WOULD BE SURPRISED IF MR. MUELLER HASN'T DONE THAT
ALREADY. >> AND IF THIS PRESIDENT TRIES
TO FIGHT IT IN COURT, WE HAVE A CASE LAW HERE THAT INDICATES HE
WILL LOSE. >> U.S. V NIXON, RIGHT ON THE
MONEY, COULDN'T BE MORE ON POINT.
END OF CASE. >> BUT HE CAN TRY TO CHASE THE
CASE TO AN APPELLATE LEVEL POSSIBLY.
BUT THERE WILL COME A DAY WHEN THE THERE WOULD BE IF HE TRIES
TO FIGHT THIS IN COURT WHERE THERE WILL BE A JUDICIAL ORDER
ORDERING THE PRESIDENT TO TURN THIS OVER.
AND MY POINT HERE IS THIS PRESIDENT IS UNPREDICTABLE IN
THAT MOMENT. WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO WE DON'T
KNOW WHAT HE WILL DO IN THE FACE OF AN ORDER.
>> WELL, CONSIDERING ALL HE HAS DONE ALREADY IN OBSTRUCTING THE
INVESTIGATION OF THE FBI, I WOULDN'T PUT IT PAST HIM IF HE
JUST TOOK THOSE TAPES AND BURNED THEM OR PUT A MAGNET TO THEM.
I MEAN, HE IS THE TYPE OF PERSON WHO WOULD DO THAT IN A SECOND
WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OR THE FACT THAT HE
IS COMMITTING A SERIOUS FEDERAL FELONY.
HE HAS ALREADY DONE THAT. IT WOULD JUST BE A CONTINUATION
OF WHAT HE HAS ALREADY BEEN DOING TO THIS POINT.
>> DAVID FRUM, MY BETTING IS ON THE SIDE THAT THERE ARE NO
TAPES. AND ONE OF THE REASONS I PLACE
THAT BET IS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOW SAYING THAT JAMES COMEY
IS LYING ABOUT OUR CONVERSATION. IF HE KNEW THERE WERE TAPES, I'M
NOT SURE HE WOULD BE MAKING THOSE CLAIMS BECAUSE THE TAPES
SURELY WOULD NOT BACK HIM UP. >> I WANT TO MAKE FIRST A
MATHEMATICAL SIDE. YOU HAVE THE 100% ON THE SCREEN.
WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP WENT TO THE CIA AND GAVE THAT NOTORIOUS
SPEECH ABOUT HIS BIG POPULAR VOTE WIN, HE TOLD THE CIA HE
BACKED THEM ONE THOUSAND PERCENT.
SO THERE ARE A LOT OF PERCENTS. 100 ISN'T ALL OF THEM.
A THOUSAND MAYBE ISN'T ALL OF THEM THERE ARE A LOT MORE
PERCENTS THAN YOU'RE ALLOWED TO ALLOW FOR.
IF HE IS ONLY GIVING 100, THAT MAY BE A VERY SMALL DOWN
PAYMENT. WHEN WE THINK ABOUT TAPING,
REMEMBER, WE ARE LIVING IN THE iPHONE ERA.
SO THE TAPE IS A METAPHOR FOR A RECORDING.
AS YOU SAY, IT SEEMS INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY THAT THERE IS A
RECORDING. THIS CONVERSATION WITH COMEY
TOOK PLACE NOT IN THE WEST WING, BUT IN THE MAIN WHITE HOUSE.
SO EITHER SOMEBODY HAD AN iPHONE ON THE TABLE OR IN A POCKET AND
USED A RECORDING DEVICE. IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE THE
PRESIDENT HIMSELF BEING ABLE TO DO THAT.
OR ELSE SOMEBODY HAS WORKED WITH THE PERMANENT WHITE HOUSE STAFF
TO INSTALL MICROPHONES OR LISTENING DEVICES IN THE
WOODWORK OF THE HISTORIC EXECUTIVE MANSION.
THAT ALSO DOESN'T SEEM VERY LIKELY.
>> PETER BAKER, SHOUTING BROKE OUT TODAY ABOUT THE TAPES WHEN
THE PRESIDENT GAVE THE NONANSWER TO A VERY SIMPLE YES OR NO
QUESTION THAT HE KNOWS THE ANSWER TO.
CAN WE EXPECT THIS TO BE THE QUESTION THAT THE WHITE HOUSE
PRESS CORPS WILL CONTINUE TO BE AIMING IN THAT DIRECTION AS
LISTENING AS IT REMAINS UNANSWERED?
>> WELL, IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE NOT ASKING THE QUESTION AGAIN
AND AGAIN. HE SAID VERY SOON.
YOU CAN IMAGINE THE NEXT TIME HE TAKES QUESTIONS IF HE HASN'T
REVEALED ANYTHING AT THIS POINT HE'LL BE ASKED WELL, IT'S BEEN
PRETTY SOON, SIR. WHEN ARE R YOU GOING TO LET US
KNOW. OF COURSE, IN THE PAST HE HAS
SAID HE IS GOING TO REVEAL THINGS OR DO THINGS IN THE NEAR
FUTURE THAT ENDED UP NOT EVER HAPPENING.
IT WOULDN'T BE THE FIRST TIME THAT EVER HAPPENED.
THIS HAS GREATER CONSEQUENCE. YOU'RE RIGHT.
IT DOES SEEM LIKE A SIMPLE YES OR NO QUESTIONS.
IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE TAPES THEN THE ANSWER IS NO.
IF YOU DO HAVE TAPES, MAYBE YOU DECIDE MAYBE I'LL TELL YOU
SOMETHING IN THE NEAR FUTURE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO DO
SOMETHING WITH THE TAPES. THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE
SPECIAL COUNSEL. THEY WANT TO REVIEW THEM THAT.
>> WANT TO TRANSCRIBE THEM, THEY WANT TO WHATEVER.
SO I TEND TO AGREE WITH YOU, THERE IS PROBABLY NOT LIKELY TO
BE TAPES. IT STRUCK ME WHEN HE FIRST
MENTIONED THIS HE WAS SORT OF TROLLING JAMES COMEY AS A SORT
OF YOU DON'T KNOW. BUT WE DON'T KNOW.
AND THAT'S A POSITION HE KIND OF LIKES KEEPING PEOPLE IN FOR THE
MOMENT. >> PETER, ANY HINT FROM ANYONE
WORK AGENT THE WHITE HOUSE ABOUT WHOA WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS
ACTUALLY THINKING ABOUT THIS TAPES GAME THAT HE IS PLAYING,
OR IS THE WHITE HOUSE STAFF COMPLETEFULLY THE DARK ABOUT
WHATEVER IT IS HE IS THINKING? >> I THINK MOST ARE CONFUSED AS
WE ARE. WE ASKED SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS
YESTERDAY, THE DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY ABOUT
THIS. AND SHE SAID SURE, I'LL GO LOOK
UNDER THE COUCHES FOR THEM. THEY DENT KNOW FOR SURE
THEMSELVES. AND THERE IS A HISTORY OF DONALD
TRUMP AS A BUSINESSMAN BEING SAID ANYWAY TO RECORD
CONVERSATIONS THAT HE MADE. SO NOBODY CAN BE 100% SURE.
AS YOU SAY, THERE IS A LOT OF REASONS TO THINK THAT IT SEEMS
UNLIKELY, AS DAVID WAS SAYING. THE VARIOUS PERMUTATIONS OF HOW
THIS WOULD COME ABOUT SEEM VERY FAR-FETCHED BALL.
LOT OF THINGS HAVE SEEMED FAR FETCHED IN THE LAST 140 DAYS.
I GUESS I DON'T RULE ANYTHING OUT.
>> LET'S LISTEN TO DONALD TRUMP'S TALKING POINTS ABOUT HE
RECITED TODAY ABOUT WHY HE THINKS THE COMEY HEARING WENT SO
WELL FOR THE PRESIDENT. AND I SAY TALKING POINTS,
BECAUSE DON'T EXPECT SENTENCES HERE.
>> NO COLLUSION, NO OBSTRUCTION. HE IS A LEAKER.
BUT WE WANT TO GET BACK TO RUNNING OUR GREAT COUNTRY.
WE WERE VERY, VERY HAPPY. AND FRANKLY, JAMES COMEY
CONFIRMED A LOT OF WHAT I SAID. AND SOME OF THE THINGS HE SAID
JUST WEREN'T TRUE. >> NICK AKERMAN, YOUR REACTION
TO THAT. >> I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO
START IN THAT STATEMENT. FIRST OF ALL, NO OBSTRUCTION?
HE BASICALLY, COMEY, CAME OUT IN PUT IN THE FIRST LEG OF THE
OBSTRUCTION CASE WHICH IS THAT MEETING IN THE OVAL OFFICE.
THAT IS ONE OF THE FOUR LEGS OF THE OBSTRUCTION CASE THAT WE
HAVE THAT INCLUDE THE TWO NATIONAL SECURITY PEOPLE WHO SAY
THAT TRUMP CALLED THEM AND THEM TO HELP STOP THAT INVESTIGATION,
AS WELL AS THE FIRING OF MR. COMEY.
THE FACT IS WE NOW HAVE UNDER OATH THE FIRST PART OF THAT.
AND IT'S PRETTY WELL SPELLED OUT.
>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT ONE ELEMENT OF THIS WHICH PEOPLE ARE
STRESSING. THE FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT
ASKED EVERYONE TO LEAVE THE ROOM, INCLUDING, INCLUDING THE
FBI DIRECTOR'S BOSS, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL LEAVE THE ROOM.
AND JIM COMEY TESTIFIES THAT PEOPLE SEEM RELUCTANT TO LEAVE
THE ROOM, THAT JEFF SESSIONS HUNG AROUND, HOPING HE WAS GOING
TO BE ABLE TO STAY IN THE ROOM. AND THAT OTHERS TRIED TO DO
THAT. BUT THE PRESIDENT WAS INSISTENT
THEY ALL HAD TO LEAVE THE ROOM HOW.
INCRIMINATING IS THAT IN THE OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE
INVESTIGATION? >> EXTREMELY INCRIMINATING.
IT ALL GOES TO HIS CORRUPT INTENT, WHICH IS DEFINED BY LAW
AS HIS INTENT TO STOP THE FBI INVESTIGATION.
IT DOESN'T HAVE TO DO WITH BRIBERY.
I DOESN'T HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT WE NORMALLY WOULD THINK OF AS
CORRUPTION. IT'S THE IDEA THAT HE
SPECIFICALLY INTENDED TO HAVE THAT FBI INVESTIGATION STOPPED
IN ITS TRACKS. >> DAVID FRUM, I WANT TO GET
YOUR REACTION TO THAT. BECAUSE YOU'RE SOMEONE WHO HAS
WORKED IN THE WHITE HOUSE. AND YOU KNOW THE LITURGY OF
THESE KINDS OF MOMENTS WHEN IT HAPPENS, WHEN THE ROOM IS CLEAR
ORDER WHY THAT WOULD BE DONE. WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THAT
PART OF IT? >> LOOK, THE REASON YOU CLEAR A
ROOM IS BECAUSE YOU'RE ABOUT TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS
SENSITIVE, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE THE CLEARANCE OR
THE NEED TO KNOW THAT PARTICULAR THING.
AT THOSE MOMENTS OF DRAMA, YOU CAN IMAGINE MANY THINGS, DMIRKS
INTERNATIONAL, WHERE THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO TALK TO
PEOPLE AT VERY HIGH LEVELS OF SECURITY AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO
ARE THERE ARE ASKED TO LEAVE. AND EVERYONE -- THERE IS NO
RELUCTANCE THEN YOU. UNDERSTAND THIS ISN'T FOR MY
EARS. I DON'T THINK I'VE HEARD OF ANY
INCIDENTS IN ANY PRESIDENCY SINCE THE NIXON DAYS WHERE A
PRESIDENT ASKED PEOPLE TO LEAVE IN ORDER TO DO SOMETHING LIKE
THIS. ONE OTHER THING THE PRESIDENT
SAID IN THAT SAME CLIP YOU PLAYED WHERE HE ACCUSED JIM
COMEY OF HAVING SAID THINGS WEREN'T TRUE.
JIM COMEY WAS UNDER OATH. IF THEY'RE NOT TRUE, THAT'S
PERJURY. THAT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME THIS
MAN AS PRESIDENT HAS ACCUSED PEOPLE OF IMPORTANT CRIMES.
HE HAS ACCUSED OBAMA OF CRIMES AND RICE AS CRIMES.
I KNOW WE ARE HARDENED AND HABITUATED WHEN THE PRESIDENT
SAYS CRAZY THINGS. HE IS THE HEAD OF STATE AND HE
IS ACCUSING IMPORTANT PEOPLE OF SERIOUS CRIMES THAT MUST MEAN
SOMETHING. >> WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BREAK
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