>>> WELCOME BACK TO "HARDBALL." OHIO GOVERNOR JOHN KASICH WAS
THE LAST MAN STANDING IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY AGAINST
DONALD TRUMP. KASICH TALKED ABOUT TWO PATHS
MOVING FORWARD POLITICALLY, ONE THAT EXPLOITS FEAR AND ANGER,
THE OTHER THAT OFFERS HOPE. LAST APRIL I ASKED HIM TO
SPECIFY WHO HE WAS TALKING ABOUT.
>> TWO DAYS AGO IN NEW YORK WITH THE REPUBLICAN WOMEN'S CLUB, YOU
TALKED ABOUT FEAR AND ANGER OUT THERE AND HOW CERTAIN CANDIDATES
OPPOSING YOU HAVE BEEN EXPLOITING IT FOR THEIR OWN FAME
AND TO GAIN ATTENTION. WHAT WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT, AND
WHO WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT? >> WELL, I WAS TALKING ABOUT
TRUMP AND CRUZ PRIMARILY. DO WE HAVE PROBLEMS?
YEAH. OF COURSE WE DO.
PEOPLE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR JOBS. THEY'RE WORRIED THEY DON'T HAVE
GOOD WAGES. THEY PUT THEIR MONEY IN THE
BANK. THEY GET NO INTEREST.
WHAT THEY'RE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT IS THEIR KID WENT TO
SCHOOL, AND IS STILL LIVING WITH THEM.
CAN'T FIND A JOB. YOU CAN EITHER GET PEOPLE AND
DRIVE THEM INTO A DITCH AND FEED ON THEIR ANXIETY, GNASHING OF
TEETH, THIS PERSON DID THIS TO ME, OR YOU CAN WALK INTO A ROOM
AND YOU CAN ACKNOWLEDGE THE PROBLEMS, AND YOU CAN TRY TO
GIVE PEOPLE AN ANSWER. HAVE A LITTLE HOPE.
>> GOVERNOR KASICH REFUSED TO ENDORSE DONALD TRUMP.
IN HIS NEW BOOK, I HAVE RIGHT HERE, A GREAT BOOK, TWO PATHS,
HE EXPLAINS WHY. ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS, QUOTE,
I DIDN'T ENDORSE DONALD TRUMP AS THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL
CANDIDATE AFTER I SUSPENDED END CAMPAIGN IS BECAUSE I COULDN'T
STAND IN FRONT OF KAREN AND THE GIRLS AND LOOK THEM IN THE EYE
AND TELL THEM I SUPPORTED THIS MAN.
I COULD NOT CONDONE HOW HE SEEMED TO TREAT WOMEN AND
IMMIGRANTS AND MINORITIES OR THE WAY HE LOOKED AT THE WORLD.
MR. KASICH CONCLUDED HERE, I PUSHED MYSELF TO IMAGINE A
FUTURE WITH DONALD TRUMP AS PRESIDENT, AND WHAT IT WOULD
MEAN FOR THE SOUL OF THIS COUNTRY.
SO LET'S TALK ABOUT IT NOW WITH YOU.
THANK YOU. 100 DAYS IN, GOVERNOR.
YOU'RE STILL GOVERNOR OF ONE OF THE GREAT STATES.
YOU WENT TO THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY.
>> I DID. >> WHERE I WAS LUCKY TO GET AN
HONORARY DEGREE. >> REALLY?
OH, YOU WERE A SPEAKER? >> THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT.
YOU HAVE TO EARN THESE. >> HOW DID YOU DO?
>> I DID PRETTY GOOD. 60,000 PEOPLE.
LET'S TALK ABOUT YOU. I THINK YOU -- AND I'VE SAID
THIS ON THE SHOW WITHOUT YOU BLUSHING HERE.
I THOUGHT YOU'RE THE PERFECT ALTERNATIVE TO TRUMP BECAUSE
THERE ARE CERTAIN REPUBLICAN VALUES THAT ARE REALLY VALUABLE,
EVEN IF PROGRESSIVES DON'T SHARE THEM.
THEY KNOW THEY'RE VALUABLE. FISCAL ACCOUNTABILITY IS A GOOD
VALUE FOR A FAMILY AND SOMETIMES IT'S A GOOD VALUE FOR ANYBODY IN
GOVERNMENT. DON'T SPEND MONEY YOU DON'T
HAVE, DON'T WASTE IT, DON'T CHEAT, DON'T STEAL, AND BE
ACCOUNTABLE FOR IT. TRADE IS A GOOD REPUBLICAN
VALUE. I SAY SCHOOL CHOICE TOO, AND
SOME PROGRESSIVES DISAGREE WITH ME, BUT I HAD CHOICES IN SCHOOL.
I THINK IT'S A GOOD THING. >> HOW ABOUT IMMIGRATION?
>> BUT I THINK DISTINCTIVE TO THE REPUBLICANS.
SO ARE THEY GOING TO FOUNDER NOW WITH TRUMP?
ARE THE GOOD VALUES GOING TO DIE?
>> THAT'S WHAT I WARRANT ABOUT,
-- WARN ABOUT, CHRIS. YOU CAN'T BE IN THE NEGATIVE.
FIRST OF ALL TO THE VIEWERS, I'VE KNOWN CHRIS FOR A VERY LONG
TIME, AND I'VE ALWAYS LOVED HIM. WE'VE BEEN FRIENDS FOR A LONG
TIME. >> I'M BLUSHING NOW.
>> WE'VE BEEN FRIENDS FOR A LONG TIME.
HE WORKED FOR TIP, TIP O'NEILL. >> THAT'S WHERE WE FIRST MET IN
THE '80s. >> WE FIRST MET, AND WE BOTH
HAVE WATCHED THE SYSTEM. WE KNOW THAT IF PEOPLE CAN'T GET
ALONG, NOTHING HAPPENS THAT IS SUSTAINABLE.
THEY ALL WRITE ABOUT REAGAN AND O'NEILL, THEY ACT LIKE THEY WERE
GREAT BUDDIES. THEY REALLY WEREN'T GREAT
BUDDIES. >> THEY WORKED TOGETHER AND
COULD BE FRIENDLY AND THEY WERE. THEY WERE FRIENDLY ACTUALLY.
>> SO WHEN WE LOSE THAT -- >> ON THE BUDGET COMMITTEE, ON
EITHER SIDE, HOUSE OR SENATE, IT IS A TOUGH JOB TO SAY NO TO SOME
PEOPLE AND YES TO OTHERS. YOU GET 8 MILLION.
YOU GET 4 MILLION. I'M SORRY.
THAT'S ALL WE'VE GOT IS 12. TRUMP'S TAX CUT LOOKS LIKE IT'S
EASY MONEY. WE'RE GOING TO GET RID OF ESTATE
TAX. WE'RE GOING TO BE LATIN AMERICA
SOMEDAY WITH A CERTAIN NUMBER OF FAMILIES, YOU CAN THINK OF THE
BIG NAMES NOW. THEIR GRANDKIDS WILL BE ZILLION
AIRS. THE OTHER THING IS LIKE GETTING
RID OF THE ALTERNATIVE MINIMUM TAX.
AT LEAST NOW OUR GOVERNMENT SAYS, ALL RIGHT, IF YOU'VE GOT
EVERY LOOPHOLE IN THE WORLD, YOU STILL GOT TO PAY A CERTAIN
MINIMUM. HE WANTS TO GET RID OF THAT.
>> WHAT ABOUT THE DEBT? I MEAN WE'RE $20 TRILLION, AND
PEOPLE SOMEHOW ARE DISMISSING THE DEBT, LIKE IT DOESN'T
MATTER. THE INTEREST ON THE DEBT IS SO
BIG, IT KEEPS US FROM INVESTING IN THINGS LIKE NATIONAL
INSTITUTES OF HEALTH. >> TELL THAT TO LIBERALS BECAUSE
THEY OUGHT TO HEAR THAT. EVERY TIME YOU SAY -- THE MIDDLE
CLASS FAMILY SAYS WHAT'S THE GOVERNMENT DO FOR ME?
IT PROVIDES FOR THE MILITARY, SOCIAL SECURITY, MEDICARE, AND
IT PAYS OFF THE DEBT. YOU KNOW WHAT, PAYING OFF THE
DEBT IS A BIG CHUNK OF YOUR TAX DOLLAR.
>> AND IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN PAY OFF A DEBT WHEN
WE COULD TAKE IT AND USE IT FOR CERTAIN THINGS.
>> YOU KNOW WHO GETS THE MONEY? OLDER T-BOND HOLDERS.
IN OTHER WORDS, HARD-WORKING 25-YEAR-OLD, 35-YEAR-OLD FAMILY
WITH THREE OR FOUR KIDS, JUST BARELY MAKING IT BY, THEIR TAX
MONEY GOES TO THE OLDER COUPLE ON TREASURY BILLS.
THAT'S WHERE THE MONEY GOES WHEN --
>> I KNOW THIS. WHEN THE DEBT GOES UP, THE JOBS
GO DOWN. AND WHEN THE DEBT COMES DOWN,
THE JOBS GO UP. >> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF TRUMP?
>> LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE TAX THING.
I NEVER HAD -- I HAD -- PRO-GROWTH CONSERVATIVES WERE
FURIOUS WITH ME. I DON'T BELIEVE YOU CUT TAXES
AND ALL THIS MAGIC HAPPENS. I DO THINK IF WE CUT TAXES, YOU
SEE SOME IMPROVED ECONOMIC GROWTH.
BUT YOU CAN'T PAY FOR THESE MASSIVE CUTS JUST OUT OF
ECONOMIC GROWTH. SO WHO'S GOING TO PAY FOR IT?
MY DAUGHTERS. IT'S NOT RIGHT.
I'M NOT SURE THIS BILL IS GOING TO GO THROUGH BECAUSE HERE'S THE
THING WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT. >> WHO'S GOING TO STOP IT?
THE DEMOCRATS OR THE MODERATE REPUBLICANS?
>> WELL, THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NEVER CARED ABOUT THAT.
ALL OF A SUDDEN, THEY SAY THEY CARE ABOUT THAT.
>> WILL THEY VOTE AGAINST IT? >> WAIT A MINUTE.
THE REPUBLICANS SAY THEY DON'T WANT THAT, AND I THINK IT
DOESN'T MATTER. >> WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE GUYS YOU
SERVED WITH IN THE HOUSE, ALL THESE FISCAL CONSERVATIVES,
FISCAL HAWKS. THEY SAY I'M A REPUBLICAN, AND
MIME PRIMARY CONCERN IS FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY.
TRUMP COMES ALONG AND SAYS FREE MONEY, MONOPOLY MONEY.
>> IT USED TO BE THAT WAY, SO I HOPE REPUBLICANS WILL SAY, FINE,
WE NEED TAX REFORM. WE NEED LOWER TAX, ESPECIALLY
THE CORPORATE TAX. THE CORPORATE TAX IS TOO DARN
HIGH. >> IS THIS GOING TO BRING BACK
THE MONEY FROM OVERSEAS, THE
30-SOME TRILLION DOLLARS SITTING OVERSEAS BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT
TO PAY TAXES ON? >> I DON'T KNOW.
THAT'S PART OF THE GOAL IS TO GET THAT MONEY BACK AND HOPE
THEY PUT -- LOOK, I CALLED ONE OF THE OBAMA PEOPLE.
I SAID, WHY DON'T YOU GIVE THEM A TAX HOLIDAY SO THEY BRING THE
MONEY BACK? THEY SAID, WELL, IF WE DID THAT,
THEY MIGHT GIVE IT BACK TO SHAREHOLDERS.
I SAID, WELL, THAT'S NOT A HORRIBLE THING.
>> YOU'RE A TRADE GUY AND A FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY GUY, AND I
KNOW A LOT OF THINGS ABOUT YOU WHICH I THINK YOU WERE AT ALL
MIDDLE OF THE ROAD, YOU'D SAY, YEAH, I LIKE THAT.
LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT MANNERS. YOU WERE THE ONLY GUY TO GET
THROUGH THAT TRUMP JAMBOREE THAT WENT ON FOR MONTHS WITHOUT
GETTING A NICKNAME. HE SEEMED TO HAVE AVOIDED YOU.
WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT? HOW DID YOU KEEP HIM FROM
ATTACKING IN A PERSONAL WAY? THE OTHER GUYS WERE LYIN' TED
AND LITTLE MARCO, VERY PERSONAL. I THOUGHT IT WAS HIGH SCHOOL.
>> I DON'T -- YOU KNOW WHAT? IF I ACTED LIKE THAT AND CALLED
THESE NAMES, WHICH MANY OF THEM WERE DOING, THEY'D THROW ME OUT
OF OHIO. I'D HAVE TO COME, YOU KNOW, I'D
BRING MY FAMILY. WE'D LIVE ON YOUR PORCH.
>> HE'S THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED GUY, AND HE GOT THE VOTES.
HE GOT OHIO. >> I KNOW.
>> HOW DID HE GET OHIO? HOW COME HE WON THE GENERAL IN
OHIO? >> YOU KNOW WHY, BECAUSE THESE
PEOPLE WHO WERE HURTING WERE LOOKING FOR A STRONGMAN.
>> COULD YOU HAVE BEATEN HILLARY?
>> YOU KNOW WHAT THE POLLS SHOWED.
THE POLLS SHOWED THAT I -- >> YOU COULD HAVE BEAT HIM IN
THE GENERAL? >> THAT'S WHAT EVERYTHING LOOKED
LIKE. >> YOU THINK BIDEN COULD HAVE
BEATEN TRUMP? >> IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AN
INTERESTING RATE AND I THINK HE COULD HAVE.
PART OF THE REASON WHY TRUMP WON IS NOT JUST BECAUSE OF HOW HE
CAMPAIGNED. I WAS AMAZED, CHRIS, AT HOW MANY
PEOPLE DID NOT LIKE HILLARY. I NEVER TALKED --
>> WHEN DID YOU FIRST NOTICE THAT?
EARLY ON OR LATER? I LEARNED IT LATER ON.
? >> I THINK I GOT IT LATER TOO.
>> YOU THINK IT WAS COMEY? >> NO.
I NEVER HAD ANYBODY WALK UP TO ME IN THE CAMPAIGN AND SAY, YOU
KNOW WHAT, I LOVE HILLARY CLINTON.
THE WHOLE TIME I WAS RUNNING, NOT ONE PERSON.
AND I DON'T -- LOOK -- >> I SAT WITH ALL THESE 67 OR 68
WAR LEADERS, AND THERE WAS CAMERAS THERE.
I DIDN'T HEAR ANYBODY SAY ANYTHING GOOD ABOUT HILLARY.
BRADY SAID THIS GUY IS NOT NICE TO THE LADIES.
HE'S KIND OF OLD SCHOOL. BUT THAT WAS THE ONLY -- THERE'S
NO POSITIVE RAH, RAH FOR HILLARY.
MAYBE SHE RAN TOO MANY TIMES. >> I THINK SHE ALSO WAS THE
SUBJECT OF BEING
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